Training "STYLES"

[Quercus]

If you go back through some old threads you can find a lot of discussion about this topic. It only serves to make blood boil to rehash it again

[DebraDownSouth]

Milan is a charlatan with no training, just a huge ego, machoism and showmanship.
http://vetmedicine.about.com/b/2009/07/07/veterinary-behaviorists-take-a-stand-against-cesar-millan.htm

http://vet.osu.edu/education/quotes-experts

[agilebasenji]

uhm, yea, i thought i heard a can of worms open.

i can't say much about CM. I am one of the last persons in the US without cable, so I haven't seen his show very often. What I did find interesting is that his show is billed as "educational" but the couple of shows I saw had "Do NOT try this at home" (or something similiar). Odd because the other dog show (the one with the English lady, Victoria something or other) does not have that disclaimer. Ask yourself why do CM techniques need such a disclaimer?

Really there are many other better methods based in science. I don't know of anyone in higher levels of training that recommend him/his books/his methods. Now granted, most of these people are agility type people. People who have won huge competitions, have been to world competitions, etc. But agility is a sport where in order to make it big, your dog does have to perform consistantly and accurately in all sorts of new environments. You are not allowed to have the dog on leash, touch the dog or have any training aids while you are in the ring. I can guarentee that if you use compulsive methods of training you will not get as far as you would using more positive methods, especially with a basenji.

here's a good place to start:
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/ian_dunbar_on_dog_friendly_dog_training.html

[tlish]

he is a very handsome man, and can make a decent television show. however, his training methods are very forceful and causes the dogs to be aversive. they are not performing a particular behavior because they want to please but because they want to avoid what you will do to them if they don't. this training won't last forever. eventually they'll get sick of it, or get other issues.

[Shannanigan]

@agilebasenji:

Odd because the other dog show (the one with the English lady, Victoria something or other) does not have that disclaimer. Ask yourself why do CM techniques need such a disclaimer?

Victoria Stilwell; the show is called "It's Me or the Dog," and it plays on Animal Planet.

I absolutely adore the show and watch it almost every weekend. We've used some of her techniques to train Paco and they've worked well.

[sharronhurlbut]

IMO, Stilwell is more effective, because the dogs has to "get" it.

[tlish]

^ agreed!!

[Kipawa]

Cesar is harsh when a dog is not obeying and is being 'strong'. He will push at the dog in the neck area with all of his fingers pointed. He will also pin the dog down - he says like the dog's mom would. And when walking a dog that is not walking on leash properly, he uses his feet to sneakily hit the dog's feet. Not my idea of great training.

[Vintinck]

I think both the mentioned television trainers have some things to offer, but both are far from ideal. Like most people said above, most of CM's techniques won't work well with a Basenji's personality. The one thing I have learned from watching CM is to pay attention to your dog's "state of mind" when you are trying to teach and correct behavior. If you have a scared dog or over excited dog, it will be hard for them to absorb anything. CM's basic rule of Exercise, Food, affection is a good general rule too. The first thing I do when I get home with Malu is take him on a nice long walk, then feed him. He responds well to it. CM and VS are both very strong proponents of walking/exercising your dog. This is especially important with Basenji's (from my limited experience). A tired Basenji is a good Basenji.

The real issue is most the people on the show are horrible dog owners. They never put the time in to train the proper behaviors in the first place. They often never walk or properly exercise (both physicall and mentally) their dogs. Many dogs have been very minimally socialized with people and/or animals. its no wonder their dogs are so misbehaved!

[Patty]

I don't have television so my friend recorded some CM programmes on video for me. At first sight I said wow! - was very impressed by results. On watching more closely I realised that what he really does is 'break' the dog's spirit and i'm sure it would make a Basenji with problems even worse! Some ohis actions such as forcing a dog down on it's back would I'm sure result in returned aggression on a Basenji's part and in my opinion is downright cruel.

I've just got back from a seminar by Dr Ian Dunbar whose methods are at the opposite end of the spectrum to Cesar's. He was actually asked his opinion of Cesar and said that they do meet socially but NEVER discuss dog training at these meetings because of their opposing views on that.

Basenjis respond to positive reinforcement and when I've competed in obedience with mine I've always found that to give them loads of praise before giving the command gets immediate results.

[agilebasenji]

@Patty:

I've just got back from a seminar by Dr Ian Dunbar

You are sooo lucky. I'm jealous.

[DebraDownSouth]

I would love to see Dunbar too.

Patty, you don't have television? Wow.

[Patty]

Yes, Ian Dunbar was amazing and he commanded my total interest for the two days. Most of his methods are ideal for a Basenji in my opinion and he was also vey knowledgeable about them which certainly did impress me because so many dog trainers I've heard, (including Cesar, thank goodness!) have very little experience of working with them.

Debra - we gave up television when our first son was born (54 years ago!!!) as we made the decision that we wanted to raise our children naturally (just like we tried to raise our Basenjis!) and we thought television would waste valuable time when they could explore, read and learn so much without the influence of the media. Occasionally I hear of a programme that I would have loved to see but really don't miss having one. Sorry, off topic!

[Schouiffy]

Everyone is saying what I would be saying… I stay far far far away from Caesar M. My parents used that same methodology (when I was a small child) on our first Basenji - she turned into a fearful, withdrawn dog who could never be around other dogs, had to be muzzled when people were in the house because she bit adults and children. I always regret her life because as much as we loved her and she loved us, she lived a much more pallid existence than a dog should have due to the fact she was improperly trained.

I have trained my Basenji with only positive reinforcement methods, using a variety of cherry picked techniques - including clicker training. I'm happy to say I have a well adjusted bitch, who loves everyone, enjoys cats and dogs, and can be recalled with in 2 feet of live ducks. that's Basenji training. (**THANK YOU **Dr. B.F. Skinner, Karen Pryor, Dr. Dunbar, Jane Killion, Dr. Patricia McConnell and others… )

[DebraDownSouth]

Patty, I know several people who got rid of their tvs. I couldn't. But I did limit my daughter's viewing. I frankly feel it can be good in many ways. But the folks who don't have them don't seem to suffer.

Lauren, I don't care what they say about spite.. dogs do feel spite.

Years ago a friend's husband had experience I challenge anyone to term something that fits better.

He drove a delivery route at the time and when the weather was nice, often took their GSD with them. So one morning he got up, told her she could go bye bye. She was psyched! He goes down and realized it was raining so told her she couldn't go. Lynn and dog watched him leave. The dog went upstairs, carried down one of his shoes, placed it in the middle of the living room rug and pooped in it.

Tell me, what is that if not spite?

[JayCee]

I just love it when folk say Mr Milan can't be all bad as he says you need to feed, exercise and give a dog affection!!!!

Jeepers! They are the MOST basic requirements for caring for any sentient beings - how Mr Milan can get any kudos for stating that is beyond me. I learnt that in nursery school when we had to look after the gerbils.

It is also beyond me that anyone can be surprised that a dog given a well-balanced diet, is given appropriate daily exercise and human contact affection is more likely to be calm/relaxed/happy/receptive to human interaction than a dog that is fed poor diet, not exercised and ignored.

Helena you made a wise decision to stop watching TV all those years ago, as it seems the majority of the Western world has lobotimised itself and lost the ability of 'common sense'.

I would like to give a shout out to Jane Killon, Ian Dunbar, Ray Coppinger, Jean Donaldson, Susan Garrett, Lesley McDevitt and Kay Laurence who among my current favourite reads/DVDs when it comes to dog behaviour and/or training.

Apologies, rant over…. I'm obviously in need of some exercise and the poor diet of 3 coffees per day is doing me no good!

[Vintinck]

JayCee

I live in a county where 30% of adult population is obese (I don't believe the UK is far behind). If people can't control their own diet and exercise, or that of their children, I wouldn't make the assumption that they know how to properly feed and exercise a dog either. Just because you know something needs food and exercise doesn't mean you know how to administer it or in what quantities. Many people I know just think letting the dog out the back door is a proper way to exercise and wonder why their dog is still so hyperactive. Many people just keep their dog's bowl full with whatever grocery store kibble they can buy but wonder why their dog is overweight.

I am not familiar with any of the other trainers you mentioned, just the ones who are on TV and the trainer I take Malu to. My trainer teaches basic obedience using a basic lure-reward style which Malu responds to (most of the time ). Bottom line is there are a lot of great training methods out there but if you don't take care of the "common sense" basics then your dog isn't going to well behaved canine citizen.

[DebraDownSouth]

@JayCee:

Helena you made a wise decision to stop watching TV all those years ago, as it seems the majority of the Western world has lobotimised itself and lost the ability of 'common sense'.

Probably 20 or more years ago, sci fi shows would feature future humans glued to reality tv with human competitions and such, 24/7. And I thought such a view was ridiculous, never going to happen. And here we are in the land of Housewives of XYZ, Survivor, pregnant teens, parents who shouldn't have one child raising 8 or more for the world to watch etc. I don't get it. The closest thing I watch that can be labeled reality tv is Project Runway and the various Andrew Lloyd Webber/John Barrowman musical cast series. Why anyone would revel in watching low/no class slime, fights, lack of morals and manners is beyond me. Yep, if you can't choose quality viewing, Helena's no tv makes sense

@Vintinck:

I think both the mentioned television trainers have some things to offer, but both are far from ideal. Like most people said above, most of CM's techniques won't work well with a Basenji's personality.

CM's techniques are not good for ANY dog. I think you are failing to comprehend his training borders abuse. Victoria is a pretty common sense trainer who understands (as is almost always the case) that the ones needing training are the owners. Not a precision incredible trainer, but I wouldn't worry about my dog in her care either. The difference is oceans wide.

[Vintinck]

There are definitely things I would never do that Millan does, like a kick or an alpha roll, but not all physical touch is bad and its not all abusive either. I wouldn't call a leash jerk abusive (although it can be if applied viciously like you see people do sometimes) and I have definitely used my feet/legs to stop my dog from going a certain way without kicking.
Some of the highly aggressive dogs that he works with probably wouldn't respond to anything other than the dominance style of training that he uses. I don't think I've ever seen Victoria work with a dog that she needed to muzzle so it wouldn't attack her. On the flip side, there is no reason to kick or roll 99.9% of dogs.
I agree that I wouldn't recommend anyone to try and copy his techniques that he uses with extremely bad dogs. If you are a relatively smart person you should be able to watch his show and filter out the things that aren't appropriate for your dog. I don't really watch it that often, but some of the dogs aren't that extremely badly behaved and he doesn't always use extreme techniques to correct those behaviors.

[sharronhurlbut]

vintinck, any rough handling is BAD for a basenji. Anything but positive treatment will come back to "bite" you. Sorry to be so harsh, but that has been my experience. I have done rescue like forever, and these types of treatments put b's into rescue.
Only positive training should be used..EVER!