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Breeding for the first time?

Breeder Talk
  • tanzaT

    @mauigirl:

    Pat,

    According to Sallie's pedigree site, Busara's Nzuri Moyo was born Nov '05 and would be 4 this fall. I think she said her bitch will be three….

    Yes, I saw that…. it was said that the bitch would be three in November, but since they only have had her a year, maybe they have the age wrong. If not, then she is not AKC registered.

    Pat Fragassi

    Tanza Basenjis

    www.tanzabasenjis.net

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  • YodelDogsY

    She still could be AKC registered. If a dog has not been used for breeding then it won't be in the AKC stud books Sally gets most of her data from. If no one submitted this dog to Sally voluntarily then she would not be in the database. Another reason why we need everyone to submit their dog's registration info for the database, no matter what registry is used or what country it is from. Even unregistered dogs whose parent's names are known can be included. Let's do it folks!

    Robyn Dubbert

    Sherwood Basenjis

    One thing that I have learned in life is to accept that things are not all black or all white. Life is shades of gray and just because someone sees a different shade of gray than you do, it doesn't mean their shade is right or wrong, its just different. ~ Robyn Dubbert

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  • diff_eqsD

    She is AKC registered, I got her papers. Her registered name is Busara's Mandisa Akish. She was born on November 6, 2006, her AKC reg number is HP23632903. And yes, I checked her parents for Fanconi, they are both Clear for Fanconi.

    ~Daria and the gang: Lana the Basenji, Mishka the Akita, Busya the Boxer… Oh, and five Basenji pups!

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  • diff_eqsD

    @YodelDogs:

    She still could be AKC registered. If a dog has not been used for breeding then it won't be in the AKC stud books Sally gets most of her data from. If no one submitted this dog to Sally voluntarily then she would not be in the database. Another reason why we need everyone to submit their dog's registration info for the database, no matter what registry is used or what country it is from. Even unregistered dogs whose parent's names are known can be included. Let's do it folks!

    What is this Sally's registry that you guys speak of? I am very new to the breed and don't know everything yet (obviously). Is that something that I am advised to register my dog with?

    ~Daria and the gang: Lana the Basenji, Mishka the Akita, Busya the Boxer… Oh, and five Basenji pups!

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  • mauigirlM

    Sally Wallis of Zande Basenjis in the UK maintains the database. It is not "official" per se but a really great resource all the same. She receives info from the AKC but still many dogs never make it up there if people don't send her the info.
    It is not something you register for.

    http://pedigrees.zandebasenjis.com/

    I believe that you send her registered name, DOB, sire, dam and color. And if you know anything about the rest of the litter that is helpful as well.

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  • lvossL

    @diff_eqs:

    Maybe someone here who reads this can suggest a sire in California?

    Any stud dog owner is going to have several questions that they will want answered. Here are some of the ones that come to mind:

    1. What are your goals for this breeding?
    2. What does your bitch have to offer the breed? In what ways has she demonstrated these traits? (Conformation, Performance, Therapy work, etc)
    3. Why are you interested in this stud dog?
    4. What health testing have you done?
    5. What information can you give me about the dogs in your pedigree? Which ones are still alive? How are they doing? Which ones are deceased? At what age and by what cause?
    6. Do you use a contract when placing puppies?
    7. Do you have a waiting list? How do you screen homes before placing them on the waiting list?
    8. Do you microchip your puppies before they leave for their new homes?

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  • tanzaT

    @diff_eqs:

    She is AKC registered, I got her papers. Her registered name is Busara's Mandisa Akish. She was born on November 6, 2006, her AKC reg number is HP23632903. And yes, I checked her parents for Fanconi, they are both Clear for Fanconi.

    I sent her information to Sally to add to the data base. If you are interested in the pedigree site go to
    http://www.pedigrees.zandebasenjis.com/

    Breeders use this and the OFA site all the time…..

    Pat Fragassi

    Tanza Basenjis

    www.tanzabasenjis.net

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  • tanzaT

    @lvoss:

    Any stud dog owner is going to have several questions that they will want answered. Here are some of the ones that come to mind:

    1. What are your goals for this breeding?
    2. What does your bitch have to offer the breed? In what ways has she demonstrated these traits? (Conformation, Performance, Therapy work, etc)
    3. Why are you interested in this stud dog?
    4. What health testing have you done?
    5. What information can you give me about the dogs in your pedigree? Which ones are still alive? How are they doing? Which ones are deceased? At what age and by what cause?
    6. Do you use a contract when placing puppies?
    7. Do you have a waiting list? How do you screen homes before placing them on the waiting list?
    8. Do you microchip your puppies before they leave for their new homes?

    I would also add:
    1. Will you require spay/neuter for any pup placed?
    2. Will you take back/be responsible any pup produced from your bitch for its entire lifetime?

    Pat Fragassi

    Tanza Basenjis

    www.tanzabasenjis.net

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  • diff_eqsD

    @tanza:

    I sent her information to Sally to add to the data base. If you are interested in the pedigree site go to
    http://www.pedigrees.zandebasenjis.com/

    Breeders use this and the OFA site all the time…..

    Thank you Pat for your help and input!

    ~Daria and the gang: Lana the Basenji, Mishka the Akita, Busya the Boxer… Oh, and five Basenji pups!

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  • diff_eqsD

    A few of you have been so kind to help me, by proposing the questions that the stud dog owner might ask. Here are my answers.

    1. What are your goals for this breeding?

    I would like to get to know more about the process/requirements for breeding. My family and I are also so much enamored with the breed and Lana's personality that we really want to keep a puppy or two from her, possibly as pets. I want to see if she is going to have good quality of puppies and that will determine if she is worth breeding in the future or if she needs to get spayed. If a puppy from the litter will have a great conformation, I am going to keep that puppy with the intent of showing/breeding him/her. Either way, I have four people besides me who would love to have a puppy from her, even as a pet quality only.

    2. What does your bitch have to offer the breed? In what ways has she demonstrated these traits? (Conformation, Performance, Therapy work, etc)

    I have been told that she has really good chest/legs/back. She also has absolutely awesome personality that reflects everything good I have ever read or heard about basenjis. Even though she has never been shown, if I pick a compatible stud, I believe (and I was told) that there is a big chance of having a puppy with a really great conformation that I can possibly show, which is my ultimate goal.

    3. Why are you interested in this stud dog?

    Haven't chosen the stud dog yet, waiting for all the test results to be done first.

    4. What health testing have you done?

    Getting hips/eyes/thyroid done within the next 10 days and ordered a Fanconi kit online. Will keep everyone posted on the results.

    5. What information can you give me about the dogs in your pedigree? Which ones are still alive? How are they doing? Which ones are deceased? At what age and by what cause?

    Parents are clear/normal for Fanconi and hips. Will call the bitch's breeder in th next couple of days to see how everything is with them.

    6. Do you use a contract when placing puppies?

    Haven't done that yet, but I have sold horses in the past, so I understand the importance of the contract. I absolutely will have the contract, and there will be a part in it that in case the people are unable to keep the puppy I want the puppy to be returned/sold to me and not to some random person.

    7. Do you have a waiting list? How do you screen homes before placing them on the waiting list?

    Yes, between me, my family and a couple of friends I have 4, possibly 5 people on the wait list. I know and trust all these people and their homes very well, and I have no doubt that all of the homes will be excellent homes for basenjis.

    8. Do you microchip your puppies before they leave for their new homes?

    Never had puppies before, but yes, will either microchip them myself or have a part on the contract that they would have to be microchipped within a certain period of time.

    9. Will you require spay/neuter for any pup placed?

    Depending on the quality of the puppy and the person's plans. So far only me and one more person wants to potentially show the puppy if the puppy is of good conformation/traits/personality/etc, the rest will be pets.

    10. Will you take back/be responsible any pup produced from your bitch for its entire lifetime?

    Absolutely. At the very least I will assume responsibility of re-homing the puppy should the original placement not work.

    ~Daria and the gang: Lana the Basenji, Mishka the Akita, Busya the Boxer… Oh, and five Basenji pups!

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  • lvossL

    Even though you haven't picked a stud dog yet, you should be thinking about what you want in a stud dog. You need to know the standard well enough to know your bitch's strengths and weaknesses and be able to evaluate how well potential stud dogs compliment your bitch. This is one reason it is encouraged to show first and then plan a breeding.

    You said your bitch's strengths were her chest/legs/back, in what ways are they strengths. Are you saying she has good front fill and point of chest? What about her legs are good? Is it her angulation? Well let down hocks? What about her back is good? Is she short backed?

    What about her topline? How is her eye shape and color? Her ear set? Her tail set? How is her front assembly? Is her skin loose and pliant? Are her feet tight and compact?

    What areas need improvement?

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  • lvossL

    Here are some good online references to help make sense of the standard and evaluating a basenji's conformation.

    http://www.azbasenji.com/basenji_standard.htm
    http://www.geocities.com/rugosab/ConformationPage.htm

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  • diff_eqsD

    Thanks everyone who has shared their knowledge and opinions on the matter! I got all the tests done, just waiting for the results from the OFA. Say all the results are good/clear/negative/etc. I already spoke to a couple breeders, so I have a couple of potential studs picked out. What are some of the other steps involved, i.e. registering the litter, etc.?

    ~Daria and the gang: Lana the Basenji, Mishka the Akita, Busya the Boxer… Oh, and five Basenji pups!

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    @bigv said in When to consider breeding?: So Taylor.rene . A little bit about my findings over the last 30 years is that every person who breeds dogs calls them self a responsible breeder? "" Yes, and fortunately for about 20 year now, anyone who really wants to verify if the breeder is actually believable can do so. Some breeders have no problem with incest for the sake of a ribbon as (dogs aren't people )..It is all about titles not the betterment of the breed. Being involved with race horses..<< Gosh, where to begin. " Incest" is a morality terminology, applied as everything from just not parent/child and aunt or uncles/nieces and nephews....all the way to 2nd or even 3rd cousins. It has little to do with genetics, hence adopted children count, and everything to do with moral views. That said, the human race is far from universally avoiding what would be called close line breeding or even incest. Isolated communities ...either physically by geographic terrain or socially by groups such Ashkenazi Jews and Romani, have limited gene pools. Ashkenazi Jews, btw, joke we are all no further than 5th cousins, but it is nearly true. Dogs and animals have no such manmade morals. A common propensity for many mammals to not to mate with closely related animals has nothing to do with incest. In limited populations they will mate, and the problems that arise if it occurs too often are due to decreased gene, increased expression of harmful genes etc. In controlled breeding, line breeding, even close, can be used to find if there are harmful recessives, or bring out desired recessives. If you think it isn't done with livestock, including horses, you're mistaken. With knowledgeable breeders who keep up on genetics, it absolutely is for the betterment of the breed, not a ribbon... Yes I am not a fan of line breeding but it seems that every zoo in the world has a similar view as they are always swapping animals to improve the genes . ...<<<<< Again, absolutely nothing to do with incest. Zoo animals, even those of nonendangered species, have a serious issue with limited gene pools. The level of that limitation cannot be compared to most pet breeds. We aren't talking many thousands of individuals, or millions, but sometimes 100 or less. Stud books are kept, for example, on all the polar bears in zoos and the effort to keep the diversification as high as possible is serious. (I'll leave out my views on them being in zoos.) So sure, if dog breeders were faced with THAT level of limited gene pool, line breeding would probably be avoided as much as possible. However, that all ignores the fact that dogs in any breed are mostly related.. If you go back 10 or more generations, you find the same dogs heavily in most lines. Sometimes 2 dogs that aren't related 3 generations back may share more actual genes than a closely related dog who has a lot of breeding out of the line on one side. That's where knowledgeable breeders come in. Having studied dingos for the past 15 years I can say without dought a bitch won't mate with relative... They are similar to basenjis in many ways. ...<< That's nice that you've studied them. But researchers are making new discoveries based on actual observations and finding a lot of what they thought isn't true. With massive interbreeding with domestic dogs, the pure dingos are disappearing. I envy those of you able to see them. However researchers suspect they have ...>>During this a hitherto unknown form of the “pure” dingo was discovered (based on DNA and skull features): a white dog with orange spots on the fur. This variant was considered as a single mutation or the result of interbreeding with an isolated dingo population.<< So they don't rule it out. (I downloaded to read, over 100 pages but you might love it. I'll save for later! https://web.archive.org/details/http://www.invasiveanimals.com/downloads/Final-proceedings-with-cover.pdf ) And my boy does have a title that no other basenji has . He is the first and only basenji to be approved by the Victorian State Goverment to be authorised to hunt deer on private and public land within its borders. But to some this would make him unsuitable to breed with you figure?<<< First, while you have done an impressive job with you dogs, I am pretty sure that is a privilege given, not a "title," and I am 100% certain his being able to would have nothing to do with whether anyone deemed him not worthy of breeding to. With the right health checks, good conformation, etc, I would think a good plus...especially if the bitch owner wanted to possibly enhance hunting ability. It simply isn't enough.
  • imbjI

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  • A

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    As I said at the beginning of this thread, the presence of dew claws in the United States has a high correlation to the lack of health testing, use of contracts, etc. That doesn't mean that in other countries it is the same. As for everyone saying that they are a "natural breed", it is not an uncommon practice in the Congo for basenjis to have their tails docked, so even in their country of origin, they are not always left unaltered.
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  • S

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    @satieo: I was just curious, I saw the thread about ages of bitches but what about males is/should there be a cut off age for them? Obviously they shouldn't be younger than 2 for proper testing. No cut off age… as long as they are potent... I used a 14yr old with one of my litters and it was a natural cover.