Did she always have them or did they start after something/some time? Do antihistamines clear the problem?
Taking Jazz in tomorrow
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I agree with Pat - sounds like a great vet.
:: positive thoughts headed your way:: -
Good luck Jazzysmom and I'm glad you vet is willing to learn. After a few false starts the vet I have is really good and willing to learn as well. It is just such a relief.
I wanted to share with you this exchange I had with Dr. Gonto about the PCO2 and HC03 levels in the protocol. Tayda was showing around 19.5 for her HC03 levels which is pretty much on target, but her PC02 levels were around 33 (the protocol indicates to target 45-47)….When I sent my results to Dr. Gonto he was very pleased, which confused me since the PC02 levels seemed so low. So I sent him the email below (in blue) asking about it, and his response is below my question (in red). Basically he says that the 45-47 values are for a dog at rest and that when excited (like at the vet getting poked) they will blow down their CO2 by at least 5, so he compensates for this by adding 5 to the CO2 value obtained from the labwork. Hope this makes sense and of course if you want to hear it from the horse's mouth directly Dr. Gonto is always great about looking at labwork and answering questions!
Are we shooting for the PC02 level of 45-47 as it states in the Protocol? Or is a PC02 level of 33 all right if the HC03 level is at least 20?
When I have time to rewrite the Protocol there needs to be a change in the PCO2 levels we look for. The original numbers came from my own dog and a number who were actually owned by vets or doctors and thus could be easily and often stuck for blood with very little stress. That means that those numbers…45-47 are correct...but for a dog AT REST. Normal dogs..at the vet, excited and getting poked, BLOW DOWN their CO2 by at least five. We now simply look at the lab result and ADD FIVE to get the AT REST number to use. Understand? Thus, a 40 CO2 would be PERFECT...but we rarely get there. Even if the dog is SUPER hyper, that may be WAY lower. If I can see a dog with a 37 or better CO2 I am happy. The MUCH more important number is the HCO3. That is the REAL deal as to what is going on with the bicarbonate..and YES, the goal is 20....or close to it.
I hope that all makes sense.
Steve
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Hugs to you and Jazzy - hope things work out okay.
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Sorry to hear about Jazzy. It sounds like your vet is great. For some reason I think we live in the same area of Washington but I may be wrong. Anyway our vet sent us to 2 wonderful specialists for the blood draws and the other metabolic stuff that is involved. ( Potassium, thyroid etc. ) The first was Dr. Lisa Dzyban who has since moved to Bellingham but is still practicing. Then we went to Dr. Cook Olson. She is at the Kitsap Animal Hospital on Central Valley road. Both have experience with Basenjis and Fanconi and both were willing to work with our vet over the phone even though we just saw them in person. I work with blood gases and metabolic studies on humans on a daily basis as my job and I had complete faith in these two.
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Sorry to hear about Jazzy. It sounds like your vet is great. For some reason I think we live in the same area of Washington but I may be wrong. Anyway our vet sent us to 2 wonderful specialists for the blood draws and the other metabolic stuff that is involved. ( Potassium, thyroid etc. ) The first was Dr. Lisa Dzyban who has since moved to Bellingham but is still practicing. Then we went to Dr. Cook Olson. She is at the Kitsap Animal Hospital on Central Valley road. Both have experience with Basenjis and Fanconi and both were willing to work with our vet over the phone even though we just saw them in person. I work with blood gases and metabolic studies on humans on a daily basis as my job and I had complete faith in these two.
We're practically neighbors – I live in Port Orchard.
My vet is Dr. Wempe at Bethel Animal Hospital in Pt.Orchard. He called this AM to give me the numbers of two clinics that can do the blood gas work, and said he's got two or three other vets he's in communication with on this. Not sure who as I didn't ask. I ran Jazz into the Emergency clinic on Durango in Tacoma; just got home a few minutes ago so haven't had time to really look over the lab report. They faxed a copy to Dr. Wempe, so I anticipate a call either today or tomorrow. He's been doing his homework and really studying up on the protocol. I feel very good about moving forward with him.
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And there is always Dr. Gonto to review the test results with also….
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And there is always Dr. Gonto to review the test results with also….
I know he's been studying the protocol, so it's entirely possible that Gonto is on his list of resources.
In my initial glance over her results, her PCo2 is HIGH – 52.0, vs the 34 - 40 that would be normal. Fanconi dogs DROP, don't they?
Her HCO3 is 23.6, so that's in the range of normal, which Gonto says is not unusual in the beginning.
PO2 is 35
Ph is 7.
BE is -3So there's something going on, and there are many more numbers to consider... but I'm really curious about the PCO2 though...
I've only just started glancing over things though, so we'll see.
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Yes, Fanconi dogs show a drop in PC02 - I'm sure Dr. Gonto can speak to what a high PC02 means…. I have no idea.
Tayda's initial test results were pretty much normal as well, so we put her on the minimal course of meds. 1 bicarb 2x/day along with all the others... it wasn't until 3 months later at the first checkup that she was upped to 4 bicarbs 2x/day.
Were you advised to start giving her meds?
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Yes, Fanconi dogs show a drop in PC02 - I'm sure Dr. Gonto can speak to what a high PC02 means…. I have no idea.
Tayda's initial test results were pretty much normal as well, so we put her on the minimal course of meds. 1 bicarb 2x/day along with all the others... it wasn't until 3 months later at the first checkup that she was upped to 4 bicarbs 2x/day.
Were you advised to start giving her meds?
Not yet. The vet wanted to wait for the blood gas results. The clinic was going to fax them over, and as I only got them today and his office is pretty busy I expect it to be a day or two before he gets back to me.
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Sounds like your vet is on top of it and that makes me so happy. Also with all of the resources and support you have in this forum all of you questions should get answered. Let me know if you have any specific questions. Like many here we had more experience with this disease than we would have ever wanted.
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Vet called this AM – he's also puzzled by the high PCO2, but Jazz had been throwing up on the ride in to the clinic {she has always been prone to carsickness, but she threw up yesterday about 4 times on the 30 minute drive}, so that may have been the problem.
He's waiting to hear back from a couple of resources, one of which is Dr. Gonto. We may try to draw blood at my vet's clinic {he's only about ten minutes away}, ice it, and have me run it to the other clinic to get a reading sans vomiting.
I do have my shopping list ready -- Pet-tabs, Pet-cal, amino fuels .....
Oh-- MarleyJo, Ph is 7.26.
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Hey Jazzysmom - how is Jazz doing on the protocol??
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Hope everything is sorted soon with Jazzy.Sounds like you have a great Vet which is reassuring .
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So far, so great! Jazz is her old self; eating well most of the time although she occasionally skips breakfast. She is taking her pills beautifully – I do the ol' pill in the peanut butter stuck on the roof of the mouth for the bicarb, she eats the tabs and cal tabs, and I am able to crush the amino and vitamins up into canned food and she is eating it just fine.
Things are going well. -
That is great! BIG ((hugs)) to you and Jazzy!
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That's great news about Jazzy!!! You go girl!
