As a general rule for adult dogs B-size for dry food: around 1% of their bodyweight per day.
For puppies a bit more.
Also depends on their activity, temperature and the like.
Just check how close you are to this, and see how the body responds.
We have found that a little food extra or less can make a difference.
New Wellness Core
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No, high protein diets will not be harmful to her. With Fanconi syndrome dogs actually loose essential nutrients so the need a high protein diet (and daily vitamin supplements), kind of the opposite of regular kidney desiese. There is a test you can have done to tell if your dog has the gene that causes Fanconi's. Maybe someone can chip in and tell us if it is available to mixed breeds?
It is good that you found a high quality food your dog likes, some B's can be real picky…not mine though, she is a chow hound! I have heard good things about Orijen and I think some of the other members feed it to their B's as well.The Fanconi test is available for any Basenji, but again, since the gene is recessive and not known (as far as I know) in Shiba's, I don't think that the test is necessary.
Dr Gonto, who developed the Fanconi Protocol, I believe recommends lower protein
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No, high protein diets will not be harmful to her. With Fanconi syndrome dogs actually loose essential nutrients so the need a high protein diet (and daily vitamin supplements), kind of the opposite of regular kidney desiese. There is a test you can have done to tell if your dog has the gene that causes Fanconi's. Maybe someone can chip in and tell us if it is available to mixed breeds?
It is good that you found a high quality food your dog likes, some B's can be real picky…not mine though, she is a chow hound! I have heard good things about Orijen and I think some of the other members feed it to their B's as well.The Fanconi test is available for any Basenji, but again, since the gene is recessive and not known (as far as I know) in Shiba's, I don't think that the test is necessary.
Dr Gonto, who developed the Fanconi Protocol, I believe recommends lower protein
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That' not what it says here: http://basenjicompanions.org/health/images/Protocol2003.html
but maybe there's a newer one with revisions? -
Dr. Gonto does prefer lower protein diets. The protocol does say "high protein" is required but "high" in this case means something like 25-30% protein. Here is what he responded to one of my inquiries about food when I wrote that I was feeding Wellness Core and that she had elevated BUN and Creatinine levels:
" Yes..that damned diet with TOO MUCH PROTEIN TO BE HEALTHY FOR ANY DOGS KIDNEYS (in my humble, personal opinion). I am already in contact with Wellness to find out what research they used to back such an outrageous formula. I bet her kidneys were simply dumping and unable to process that insanely high amount of protein in that dog food. What are these Wellness people thinking? My daughter is an Olympic athlete and I would not have her on that high of a protein diet!!! Eskimo sled dogs, dogs that work the hardest and live in the harshest climate of ANY dog on earth…they eat seal blubber and stews made from elk and some winter wheat. Even those HARD working dogs eat a diet only about 35% protein!!!"
And in a separate email chain when I asked him how he felt about raw feeding he answered this:
"No problem with all natural raw food. That is, if your dogs go out, run down a gazelle and kill it, then eat it where they felled it...fine. But I am guessing you are talking about a slab of meat from a hormone filled cow, slaughtered in a filthy, bacterial laden slaughter house and processed with tools oozing in a host of bacteria, mold and fungus and then stored for a few months before you buy it "fresh" in a supermarket??? Would YOU eat that raw? Would you feed it to your child? WHY NOT.....your ancestors ate it that way, right? Must be good for you...right? After all, they DID live to the ripe old age of 23 or so...IF they were REALLY, REALLY lucky. (just like dogs in the wild, who sometimes make it to seven or eight....all diseased up and sore covered...but HEY....."IT'S ALL NATURAL"..yahooooo. "
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Yes, he's sarcastically funny! hahahahaaha I guess I have to revise some of my thinking. I never thought about the hormone laden meat we get. AHhhh something else to add to my mix!
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Dr. Gonto does prefer lower protein diets. The protocol does say "high protein" is required but "high" in this case means something like 25-30% protein. Here is what he responded to one of my inquiries about food when I wrote that I was feeding Wellness Core and that she had elevated BUN and Creatinine levels:
" Yes..that damned diet with TOO MUCH PROTEIN TO BE HEALTHY FOR ANY DOGS KIDNEYS (in my humble, personal opinion). I am already in contact with Wellness to find out what research they used to back such an outrageous formula. I bet her kidneys were simply dumping and unable to process that insanely high amount of protein in that dog food. What are these Wellness people thinking? My daughter is an Olympic athlete and I would not have her on that high of a protein diet!!! Eskimo sled dogs, dogs that work the hardest and live in the harshest climate of ANY dog on earth…they eat seal blubber and stews made from elk and some winter wheat. Even those HARD working dogs eat a diet only about 35% protein!!!"
And in a separate email chain when I asked him how he felt about raw feeding he answered this:
"No problem with all natural raw food. That is, if your dogs go out, run down a gazelle and kill it, then eat it where they felled it...fine. But I am guessing you are talking about a slab of meat from a hormone filled cow, slaughtered in a filthy, bacterial laden slaughter house and processed with tools oozing in a host of bacteria, mold and fungus and then stored for a few months before you buy it "fresh" in a supermarket??? Would YOU eat that raw? Would you feed it to your child? WHY NOT.....your ancestors ate it that way, right? Must be good for you...right? After all, they DID live to the ripe old age of 23 or so...IF they were REALLY, REALLY lucky. (just like dogs in the wild, who sometimes make it to seven or eight....all diseased up and sore covered...but HEY....."IT'S ALL NATURAL"..yahooooo. "
Thanks for posting that…quite honestly, ever since you posted in the other thread about what Dr. Gonto said about the food having too high a protein level, I certainly am rethinking again the food choice for my kids. I've had them on Orijen (6 fresh fish)...the protein level of that is 42% (if I remember right) and if he thinks Core is too high I can only imagine what he'd say about that. Not to mention, EVO or Solid Gold (Barking at the Moon). It's a tough call because all the grain free foods seem to be super high in protein...Core is a little more moderate. Granted, Ruby is a clear and Brando is a carrier, but I've kind of always wondered about the kidney aspect of high-protein food even relative to a healthy dog.
BTW, I had started giving Ruby Core (Ocean) in the last month because she had put on a couple pounds...she has since lost the weight, so the Core seems to work for her. Boy, and after reading what he said about raw (he's so funny), I think the only way I'd do it is if I was doing organic...heck, I personally don't eat meat or fish that isn't organic (for the very reasons he wrote) so why should the b'kids.
Can I ask, what food did you switch Tayda to?
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Per Dr. Gonto's suggestion, I switched her to a senior food… I chose Innova Senior. http://www.innovapet.com/product_line.asp?id=1674 It has about 18.5% protein and also has the probiotics that are supposed to help against urinary tract infections (which Fanconi dogs are prone to). I'm anxious to see how it affects her blood work when I take her back in a couple months…
I know, I never knew about the potential adverse effects of high protein foods on the dogs kidneys. And I would not have known if not for the bloodwork for Fanconi. Her regular bloodwork from a year ago showed she had elevated BUN and Creatinine levels also, not above normal, but at the high end of the normal range. The vet chalked it up to her having had a few treats right before the blood draw - which now I'm doubting. I'm hoping this switch of food will bring her levels down...
Also, FYI, Dr. Gonto mentioned to me that he feeds his own dogs Nutro Ultra http://www.ultraholistic.com/index.html
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Thanks Michelle.
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I have never thought that comparing wet diets to dry was a very good idea. A big difference between what sled dogs eat and a grain free kibble is the moisture available.
Here is an interesting article about high protein kibbles, http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=protein_myth
I do think it is really important no matter what kibble you feed, that you make sure your dogs are getting enough water. I have noticed that my basenjis, like my cats, are not always very good about drinking water. So I feed my dogs much like I feed my cats, they get one meal of canned food a day, and I try to add water to kibble meals.
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This is similar to how I feed my dogs. Kiora, and Ananda (coyote mix) both drink pretty sparingly. they share a can of moist food a day and they get warm water in their food to hydrate them and swell the kibbles a bit.
IMO Wellness core has very moderate protien, especially compared to other kinds of grain free kibbles. I chose it because though my dogs are excersized daily they aren't athletes and they don't need a huge amount of protien. Wellness core has 34% protien..only 45% more then the amount you said was reccomended. here is the analysis:
Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein min. 34%
Crude Fat min. 14%
Crude Fiber max. 4%
Moisture max. 10%
Calcium max. 2%
Phosphorus max. 1.4%
Vitamin E min. 150 IU/kg
Omega 6 Fatty Acids* min. 3.25%
Omega 3 Fatty Acids* min. 0.70%
Glucosamin Hydrochloride* min. 250 mg/kg
Chondroitin Sulfate min. 200 mg/kg
Total Micro-organisms* min. 80,000,000 CFU/lb
Crude Protein min. 5 mg/kgAnd here is the analysis for a can of Wellness 95% Salmon
Guaranteed Analysis (Label Statement)
Crude Protein
Not Less Than
8%Crude Fat
Not Less Than
6%Crude Fiber
Not More Than
1%Moisture
Not More Than
78%Now if sled dogs are eating 37% protein in stew form…...hmmm.
Here's the analysis for some Chicken breast Jerky treats:
Ingredients
100% fresh chicken breast meatGuaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein 80.0% min
. Crude Fat 2.0% min.
Crude Fiber 1.0% max.
Moisture 12.0% max.Now I'm not saying that a wild dogs diet is 80% protein but if you removed the moisture from all that elk and seal blubber it's pretty hard to imagine it only has 37% protein. The chicken jerky has 46% more protein then Wellness Core , and 2% more moisture.
And how is a comparison to the amount of protein a human consumes even a relevent comparison? Humans are omnivores, dogs are carnivores...they may be able survive omnivorously but it isn't a natural state for them like it is for us. I only eat meat a few times a week, I certianly wouldn't expect my dogs to eat like that. If my dogs were athletes I wouldn't hesitate to feed them kibbles with 40 or 50% protein, a bit closer to the levels they might get naturally.I totally agree about the raw food. I wouldn't feed my dogs raw from the grocery store either. I would only feed raw if I could feed organic.
Now maybe I could see this protein statement being valid to healthy dogs of breeds that have been bred away from their natural state like Bulldogs or Yorkies. But for a healthy specimen of a natural breed like a Basenji? I seriously doubt that B's in Africa are only getting 25-30% protein.
As far as the Fanconi regimen if Dr.Gonto has such a specific percentage of protein that he reccomends it should say it right there. everything I read about it said High, High, high protein. If high protein isn't what he means then why is the information available so misleading?Also if high protein is bad for dogs no one ever told my dogs that because they have never been in better health with grained kibbles then they are now.
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Oops my bad I thought it said 37% for sled dogs when it actually says 35%. Nevertheless my argument remains valid.
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As far as the Fanconi regimen if Dr.Gonto has such a specific percentage of protein that he reccomends it should say it right there. everything I read about it said High, High, high protein. If high protein isn't what he means then why is the information available so misleading?
In the link that you posted from Basenji Companions, it does say that low protein should be given to fanconi dogs showing renal failure - there is the section on Renal Failure - Hybrid Protocol.
Michelle's dog Tayda is in renal failure (as posted in the other thread), hence Dr. Gonto is prescribing low protein protein food.
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No I understand that. I was talking about the protein reccomendation for normal fanconi dogs of 25-30% as posted by Tayda_Lenny. I did read about the alternate protacol for dogs with renal failure. If I had to feed my dogs a low protein diet I would pick something similar to Innnova senior as the protein is from authentic meat source not soy or corn gluten.
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This has been an informative thread. I mix 50:50 regular adult Innova and Beef EVO for my 3 dogs ages 13, 11 & 9. They actually thrived on the Innova but when EVO came out I thought it might be better. It was too rich and alone, caused too soft stool, but the 50:50 mix has been good. Rethinking their ages and the stress on the kidneys from too much protein, I think I will back down to good old regular Innova! I have tired Senior…and they are not impressed.
Thanks for the information shared in this topic.
Anne -
No I understand that. I was talking about the protein reccomendation for normal fanconi dogs of 25-30% as posted by Tanza. I did read about the alternate protacol for dogs with renal failure. If I had to feed my dogs a low protein diet I would pick something similar to Innnova senior as the protein is from authentic meat source not soy or corn gluten.
I didn't post anything about %, only that very high protein is not what Dr. Gonto recommends, below is taken from his protocol, note that High Protein is recommend "once" a week…. and he notes as long as the dog is not in Renal Failure.....
2. Any good quality dry food may be fed, with the addition of at least one can per week of HIGH PROTIEN “wet meat” mammal meat based dog food (Beef,
Lamb…etc.) to replace long-chain amino acids and phosphorus. Poultry based foods have proven far less effective in management of this disorder then mammal
based meats. The only exception to this high protien diet, in this protien-losing uropathy, is documented renal failure (increasing BUN/CREATININE). In this type
situation, see the “RENAL FAILURE HYBRID PROTOCOL” section later in this instruction set. -
I am sorry you are right Tanza Tayda_Lenny made the comment about the protien level here is the quote:
"Dr. Gonto does prefer lower protein diets. The protocol does say "high protein" is required but "high" in this case means something like 25-30% protein."
If there is a specific, stringent % of protein required by Dr.Gonto then shouldn't he just say so instead of being so vague? Maybe it should say any good quality dry food with 25-30% protien? In my mind and in others too Wellness Core is very high quality. if he wants us to stay away from high protein then why is the the only referance to low protein in the hybrid protocal for renal failure? And yes I am aware of the hybrid protocal, no need to shout, as I posted earlier. I am talking about the normal protocal. But that does bring up a point that if low protein is the normal reccomendation then why would there even be a hybrid protocal? Maybe I'm crazy but when I read "High protein diet" I think that that is what he really means. The main obvious conflict I can see with Wellness Core is that it is poultry based and he reccomends mammal based. When I think of a high quality mammal based food I think Innova EVO Red…this has even higher protein then Wellness. Since he doesn't say anything about restricting protein for Normal Protocal Fanconi dogs...how is one supposed to know that one should?....guess? Telepathy? Perhaps there is a secret memo nobody sent me.
Additionally references to "high protein" in conjuction with fsnconi seem to be in abundance:
"If you suspect that your Basenji has Fanconi, do not place your dog on a "kidney" diet -- which is usually low in protein. Protein is what a Fanconi-afflicted Basenji needs! Fanconi afflicted dogs are literally urinating away vital proteins and amino acids that their bodies require in order to live."
http://www.voyuz.net/voyuz.net/basenji_FAQ/Entries/2008/11/18_10_Health_Problems.html"Another way to prevent Fanconi is by making sure your pup has a beneficial diet. DO NOT restrict your Basenji's protein intake. These dogs require higher amounts of protein on a normal basis and when afflicted by Fanconi, the dog 'passes' the proteins and amino acids necessary for healthy living. Recent studies have shown that the Basenji breed does better when given small amounts of high quality meat."
http://www.tajirikennels.com/index/basenjis.htm"In “kidney failure,” he says, the dog retains fluid, buffers, protein and metabolic waste products. In Fanconi Syndrome, the dog’s renal tubules are not performing their proper job of filtering buffers, protein and nutrients back into the system, and these protein, buffers, nutrients and water are being “slushed on through,” unutilized, at a great rate.
A Fanconi dog must be given additional protein, water, nutrients, and buffers to maintain the integrity of all of the organs; whereas a dog in “kidney failure” needs to have Iess protein, fluids, etc."
http://www.basenjicompanions.org/health/fanconi/gonto.html -
The good news, however about Fanconi is that from July 2007, as long as we have all responsible breeders that test DNA "before" breeding, we will never again produce an affected Basenji!
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Sorry Pat. That is wrong. I talked to Jon Curby. The test is approx. 90-95% accurate. This is not a 100% test. There could still be a fanconi produced dog.
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Wow I haven’t checked this thread in a while. Didn’t mean to cause any controversy…
You're right the protocol as it stands does not list a specific percentage associated with "high" protein. What I shared with the forum was from personal emails exchanged between Dr. Gonto and myself specifically about Tayda and her condition. And to be clear, her condition is:
- Diagnosed Fanconi
- BUN and Creatinine levels at the high end of normal range (not yet considered renal failure, we are hoping that by lowering the protein in her diet, these levels will come down. If that happens, I will be convinced that the high levels of protein in her previous diet were a large contributor)
So her treatment plan is somewhere in between the “traditional Fanconi” and the “modified for renal failure” plan…
I’m not trying to tell anyone what to feed or not feed their dogs. I was just sharing what I've learned in the last few weeks from Dr. Gonto as a result of Tayda's diagnosis. I was also surprised to hear his opinion about Wellness Core being too high in protein, and think it would be a good idea to specify in the protocol a certain percentage of protein that is recommended. But I have to say he is happy and willing to correspond with people about their basenjis and that to me is more valuable than anything else right now. Each dogs situation could be a little different depending on the results of their blood work and whats good for one dog is not necessarily good for another.
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Sorry Pat. That is wrong. I talked to Jon Curby. The test is approx. 90-95% accurate. This is not a 100% test. There could still be a fanconi produced dog.
It is more then we had before and better the NOT testing.. and so far from the 2000+ tests there have not been any results that don't make sense… and the couple that were in question were re-run with the cheek swab to verify....
And in the end, I will take the 90-95% compared to not testing at all
