@mikesull That is brilliant news - He will soon be totally clean at night. Yes, it is entirely possible you are over-doing the exercise. He needs to grow stronger and mature before you overwork those wee leg muscles. They are so keen and eager, it is easy to do but try to scale it back a bit for another couple of months or so.
Whining That Never Stops!
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I took Max who had a very mild case of separation anxiety to a veternary behavioral specialist at UC Davis Veterinary College. She told me that basenjis are the most difficult breed to work with for separation anxiety. Meds do help in some cases. Having a canine companion can help in some cases–have you tried that? My personal opinion is that basenjis are a pack breed and most are happiest with either a canine or human companion. Basenjis with separation anxiety seem to be extremely difficult to crate train--I don't believe it's a matter of "training" in their case--it's a matter of desensitizing them to the situation which is a very slow process. Their destructive behavior when left alone is usually due to their extreme anxiety. Max was not particularly destructive unless left alone. One time, he shut the door of one of my spare bedrooms and was shut in by himself without his companion Pepper. He destroyed everything in the room--tore the drapes down off the wall and destroyed them, pulled the phone out from the wall and destroyed it--etc etc. They are miserable when they are in this state--and if there's anything that can be done for her--even if it has to be rehoming her with someone who can be with her most of the time--to be in a happier state most of the time, it needs to be done for her best interest.
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Okay, so am I understanding that because I can't give her an xpen or because I can't lock her in a room, the best solution is to rehome her? What is going to happen if I rehome her and these issues continue? Chances are she'll be put down then, even if I rehome her through BRAT or go through the classifieds. She has a great home where she's at. I'm just curious where the conclusion came up that her home isn't good enough or that I'm not able to work with her. Pardon me, if I seem a bit defensive, but I'm wanting to help her and I'm wanting to work with her, I'm asking for the best way to go about it.
Methods I've used to try to help her are as follows: shock collar(left on her for not even a half hour, the thing didn't work so I took it back), she also was put on puppy prozac and I did start with positive reinforcement training. I'm actually still doing positive reinforcement training with her. She's just not on the medicine anymore. As of now, those are the only two methods I've tried. And if all you guys have, is the idea of rehoming her, then I'm stumped.
I really do appreciate any help you can offer in ways of training. I'm asking for tactics you might have used in your process of training your basenji's. Cuz we all know they didn't train themselves.
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Well, yeah, you do seem defensive. We have actually offered a lot of ideas, but there are obviously reasons why they won't work for you. A lot of us have dogs like yours; we found ways to make it work; we are telling you those ways; they may not work for you. That doesn't mean we aren't trying to help.
The gist of crate retraining is simple. You make the dog want to go in the crate by putting something irresistable in there. You build the suspense and desire to go in, and eventually open the crate door to let her in. Then as she gets the treat you let her right back out. The trick is not shutting her into the crate in the beginning stages of training. You have to totally desensitize her to the door being shut; and then to the door being shut, and you walking away; and then add in you leaving the house. It isn't something you can do and still be needing to close her into a crate for hours per day. You have to find somehow else to keep her safe while you retrain her.
I can totally understand that you WANT to keep your dog. YOU are the one who mentioned rehoming first…so I figured you consider that a real option.
And no, she wouldn't necessarily be in the same situation in a new home, because they might be able to keep her in a confined, safe room; or use an x-pen; or have no neighbors that could her here scream; or have a doggie door where she could go in and out; or have kennel runs outside where she could go in and out. BRAT does a great job of finding homes for dogs with known 'baggage' They certainly would not allow crate screaming to be a cause for euthanasia. Like I said, most people who have basenjis have had one, or known one that has this "crate phobia"
I will put you in contact with my friend, Cheryl. She will be able to help, if you can find a way for her method to work in your house.
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We are trying to help you.
This is not a quick easy fix.
YOU want to keep her, we get that, so we give you lots of info.
BUT your the one who will need to do it and it won't happen fast.
If your expecting a quick fix, then you will be the one who is unhappy.
MAKE the crate wonderful.
Make her want to go in it.
Its all up to you.
Oh, I am a BRAT person.
I have a crate phobic dog.
We have made our house one where there is NO crate.
Again, not easy or quick…we dealt with a lot of things when the dog was loose in the house.
So, really, its up to you. -
I do appreciate your crate retraining info. I'd be glad to try to make it work. As well as you putting me in contact with your friend. If you could kindly answer a question regarding the crate training, I do believe I'd be able to make it work. You say that I cannot crate her while retraining her, but rather find her an alternative while I retrain her. First off, how long does this process typically take? I'm asking for planning purposes, if I would possible need to take her to doggie day care, then I could plan that in for the time it could possible take. Second, do you recommend a crate where she has a little extra room or one that allows her to stand up, turn around and lay back down?
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Honestly in my option it sounds like she's not getting enough exercise witch is a huge problem with high energy dogs I would make time to walk her 2x a day maybe get a long flexi and let her run around alittle better maybe in a park that way she can run alittle further and get alittle more energy out I don't crate my dogs cuz they have serious issues when crated so i decided it was easier to train them to be good in the house then go threw that "hell" again I think for the time being while u are looking into other idea's I would bring her running for a bit maybe 1hr before u leave then give her some benadryl about 30 mins before putting her in the crate until u can find another idea that might work better for her the Vets also have a sedative that they can give some dogs Trust me i know what u mean about not wanting to give her up and try everything first i am going threw that now with the neighbors getting sick of the dog barking i am trying all and every option i can. I tried many other things the stuff u get at petsmart that suppose to calm them down that u plug in didn't work the bach's rescue remedy didn't work the only thing that has for the time being has been the long walks before i leave and the benadryl {hopefully when his meds kick in i won't have to use the benadryl any longer} I wouldnt suggest using the benadryl as a long term fix but maybe it will get u threw alittle bit till u can find something that will work for the both of u. And for a behaviorist to say There's no hope for her I think the person needs to get out of that bussiness cuz there's always a way to correct a behavior might not be a quick fix and take quite some time but there is never a NO HOPE DOG :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
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Also can u maybe move the crate to your room ? maybe with the smell of u and your stuff might help her alittle in knowing she's not put in the basement.
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If you can't crate the dog, then making the space safe that she is in when your gone is the key.
Give lots of chew toys to keep her busy.
Make her walk every morning before you go to work.
We use, coats, raincoats and we make the dogs goes.
Every morning this dog should come in tired and ready to sleep.
When you get home, again, more exercise…
then in the evening, she plays with you, throw toys, give chew bones..keep her awake and busy.
A tired basenji is a good basenji.
Drugs are only good for very short term.
Good luck. -
then give her some benadryl about 30 mins before putting her in the crate until u can find another idea that might work better for her
How much do you give?
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I'll speak from my experience only as I am far from having a huge knowledge on this. My B was extremly crate phobic!!! one day I came home (after being gone for only an hour) and she had wedged herslf half way through the door, between the 2 latches (stuck at waist level)! I was horrified and never used the crate on her after that, she was 5 months and she is now 9 months. What I did was leave her in the house for 5 min increments at a time and made sure it was "puppy proof" before I left. So slowly but surely I was up to a couple of hours with no problem. After the crate incident I tried putting her in the bathroom, no luck either, there was so much poop and everything I had put in there was destroyed! So now we leave her to roam about the house (we close the bedroom doors since it's carpet just in case). She was extremly, I guess you could say chlostrophobic , she's like that even in the car until I put the convertable top down then she is fine. Although if I have to leave her for more than 4 hours I bring her to a great doggy day care, look into those, I know the ones here are better than most child day care, and pretty affordable. The 1st step is I would try to step out of the house for just 5 min, and see if she has destroyed anything. Mia is usually fast asleep on her fav chair when we get home and happy as a clam. IMO I think the enclosed space tells them something is wrong, meanwhile if they can go the places they usually can go they might just think you are in another room doing something else. but the others have much more experience in this field than I do, so try their options. Good luck as I know how frustrating it is
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My vet has me given Aspen a 22 lbs dog 25 milligrams {pill} or if u get the liquid cuz its watered down 2 TEASPOONS 10CC if u have a syringe again i would use this short term until u can find a thing that will work for the 2 of u
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I do appreciate your crate retraining info. I'd be glad to try to make it work. As well as you putting me in contact with your friend. If you could kindly answer a question regarding the crate training, I do believe I'd be able to make it work. You say that I cannot crate her while retraining her, but rather find her an alternative while I retrain her. First off, how long does this process typically take? I'm asking for planning purposes, if I would possible need to take her to doggie day care, then I could plan that in for the time it could possible take. Second, do you recommend a crate where she has a little extra room or one that allows her to stand up, turn around and lay back down?
NO one can tell you how long it will take to re-train could be days, weeks, or months….. or even if it will ever work.. some just can't be crated... and yes I would recommend a crate with some room... what size have you been using?
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But i do have to add if your only given her the benadryl and not the running then it won't work as well . All the Benadryl is going to do is add to her being alittle sleepy and calm her nerves alittle so she's not freaking out as much but if she's not getting the exercise before it might acaully make her NOT sleepy and calm and just freak out more So PLEASE don't just give her that and not the exercise cuz u don't want it working backwards for u or her.
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But i do have to add if your only given her the benadryl and not the running then it won't work as well . All the Benadryl is going to do is add to her being alittle sleepy and calm her nerves alittle so she's not freaking out as much but if she's not getting the exercise before it might acaully make her NOT sleepy and calm and just freak out more So PLEASE don't just give her that and not the exercise cuz u don't want it working backwards for u or her.
And even with benadryl, if she is already starting to get hyper when you give it..it could and sometimes does make it worse… just like Phoenix says....
Sad to say, but there is no quick fix to a phobic crate dog....
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But i do have to add if your only given her the benadryl and not the running then it won't work as well . All the Benadryl is going to do is add to her being alittle sleepy and calm her nerves alittle so she's not freaking out as much but if she's not getting the exercise before it might acaully make her NOT sleepy and calm and just freak out more So PLEASE don't just give her that and not the exercise cuz u don't want it working backwards for u or her.
Also, Benadryl makes some dogs MORE excitable instead of less.
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When I first acquired EL D, he had a reputation for total destruction with the previous owner. He destroyed two crates (even though he used to live in crates), tore up bathroom, destroyed furniture, etc etc. whenever left alone I brought him home knowing all this. I never did meds but instead I arranged a couple days of vacation and spent time to work with EL
since he couldn't be crated again, first I stayed with him loose in the kitchen (doors to rest of house were closed or I put up a gate- gate had plexiglass instead of wood or plastic bars, so nothing for him to chew), he had lots of toys, and his bed. Of course I spent as much time as I could playing with him (I have a fenced yard) or taking him for walks (even now ith the cold we still go outside if only for 5 minutes). When evening came I would sit in the kitchen reading or whatever, gradually turning down lights, until he calmed down. Then I'd go to bed. In the mornings I would get up extra early and let him play and run in the yard for exercise. Over the next couple of days I would begin to leave the house for short periods, leaving a talk radio on, kong toys available, and gradually my absences getting longer. Eventually I began to open other rooms of the house to him. All this time he never destroyed anything worthwhile (toys yes, papers yes - no big deal) despite his reputation. Now he has full run of the house with no problems. -
I guess I don't understand why you say an expen won't work before you even try it. There have been a lot of good suggestions here. Personally, I would not try the Benedryl, for reasons mentioned AND b/c you have no idea when it will wear off. Have you tried a DAP? (I don't think that's the sole answer, but part of the solution.) Have you tried another behavourist? If she used to be okay in the crate, but is now having severe problems with it, have you tried looking for a medical based reason? (Full thyroid pannel? An off thyroid can cause behavoir problems.) If the basement is a remote place, then it is not a good crate place. I live in a house that is about 1100 square feet. In the living room I have 2 crates AND an expen. One crate for the baby (13month old basenji), one crate for the malinois and an expen for the tri-ing basenji. In the expen there are 2 beds, a doggie sleeping bag, a heated pad, 2 blankets, some toys/bones/etc and it is infront of the sliding glass window so he can catch some rays. (It is a regular sized xpen, you just can't see the floor in there.) He loves being in there, in fact, all the dogs love being in there. Yes, depending on where you're trying to go, some of those things are in the way, but the dogs are happy.
It is very important that you don't use correction based training with this. It is a phobia. Susan Garrett has a new dvd out called Crate Games. It's a good video and while it isn't created for your type of situation, it might be a part of the solution and will be helpful in re-training. Also, I'll be Home Soon by McConnell should also help. Both of those are available at dogwise.com.
As to how long this takes, it really depends on you and how severe her phobia is. It always takes much longer to re-train a behavior.
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I know it sounds like we are slamming you, but we want you to see your the one with the power.
It won't be easy, and it won't be quick…if that is the type of answer you were looking for, then really, you DO need to rehome this dog.
BUT given you have said you love this b and want to make it work, then YOU need to make it happen.
Again, we will support, but its not going to be quick and you will have to do some thing to make this dog happy.
Sorry, if this sounds harsh, but that is the reality. -
I have been reading these posts and trying to figure out if or how to weigh in.
Most of you who've been here at least a few months know that I live with Keoki – if not the King, then the Prince of Separation and Crate Anxiety, not to mention a few other little "mental quirks". And you all know how much I ADORE my baby boy!!!!
He came to us at about 3 mos old. We already had one older mixed breed dog, and a 2 yr old Basenji female. We expected a few nights of crying, but nothing prepared us for the month of SCREAMING and crate tearing that would follow. He not only completely destroyed any bedding that was in the crate with him, but also did a good bit of damage to the crate itself.
I wound up spending nearly 8 mos sleeping on the floor in front of his crate, repeating all night, "Keoki, go to bed; go to bed....." It was the only way he'd sleep at all.
During the days when he had to be left alone -- which are seldom because I am a stay-at-home mom, he was always SCREAMING when we left the house, and SCREAMING when we got home.
I tried Rescue Remedy, which calmed him somewhat but didn't solve the problem. I stopped using that once I really grasped that the truly active ingredient was alcohol.
I went to a behaviorist/vet who had some good tips, and who also prescribed medications. The first medication seemed to work at first, for a couple of hours, then turned my dog into a crazy drunk.
The second medication did indeed calm him and help him to sleep. But it also changed his personality in a negative way.The only thing that has brought us any peace is: Putting both of the Basenji crates inside an ex-pen {you can get fairly small ex-pens, if space is problem, BTW. And you just get extra panels for the top and bottom}.
I cannot latch his crate, and I cannot leave any bedding at all inside when he's in there and we are not home.
At first, it didn't help much -- he tore up the outside of both his and Jazzy's {the other B}crates a good bit, and he somehow managed to pull our other dogs bed into the ex-pen through those little tiny squares and tore it all up.Now he sleeps okay in his crate, as long as it is unlatched and inside the ex-pen. {During the day, he goes in there all the time to sleep.}. Sometimes he crams into Jazzy's crate also, which doesn't thrill her and occasionally causes a small "disagreement".
When we leave him in there during the day, I replace all real bedding with paper towels. He has only recently stopped destroying those.
He now sleeps all night -- that was a goal achieved in November, when Keoki was around 11 mos old.Our problem is not "solved", but we have a solution we can live with for the time being. Eventually, I'd like to see him over these things, but we'll see..... for now, I am content!
I guess my whole point with this rambling tale is that you are most likely facing a long and tedious battle. Crate fears and Separation anxiety do NOT have easy fixes. Even medical treatments -- IF they work -- are designed to be temporary while you work on behavior training.
You have to be prepared to be in it for the long haul. And if the whole family isn't on board with it, it can get very unpleasant {My dh was NOT happy about the situation, believe me!}
These dogs are so worth it, though. I hope you are able to to work through this.
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When I adopted my girl, I was told to crate her but she had terrible anxiety attacks when she went into the crate. What I did was make sure she got a long walk every morning before I'll leave the house, and I know it's not easy but I was up at 4AM to take her out. If weather is a problem, try her on a treadmill. She needs to be tired when you leave. The other thing I did was to basenji proof my house. I had to put child safety locks on my kitchen cabinets because she could open then up. Every once in awhile she would do something but never anything significant. The nipping sound like more frustration then anything. I got my girl because the person who had her before said she was mean and out of control and gave her up. I really believe that comes out of frustration.
I think a behaviorist who believes there is no hope for a dog shouldn't be working with dogs. You may want to try someone else.
