Thanks for the advice. It's definitely helped!
Wet weather exercise
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@Scagnetti said in Wet weather exercise:
eeefarm
You left out an "e"
I would absolutely agree that confinement works well for specific purposes, not the least of which is making your attention more valuable to the dog since it is rationed. However, it is a poor trainer who can't figure out how to deal with various problems and modify behaviour when necessary. I prefer to do that and end up with a dog that is reliable in the house without constant supervision and without crating once they have learned your expectations. Of course one takes proper precautions until the dog has proven him/herself trustworthy.
And yes, I have experience dealing with mature dogs with problems that I managed to resolve successfully. Not to mention several dogs I taught to be reliable off leash in the city, back when there were no leash laws. Dogs trained by me would not cross a street unless at heel. Back in the day we didn't consider that too big a deal.
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@eeeefarm said in Wet weather exercise:
@Scagnetti said in Wet weather exercise:
eeefarm
You left out an "e"
I would absolutely agree that confinement works well for specific purposes, not the least of which is making your attention more valuable to the dog since it is rationed. However, it is a poor trainer who can't figure out how to deal with various problems and modify behaviour when necessary. I prefer to do that and end up with a dog that is reliable in the house without constant supervision and without crating once they have learned your expectations. Of course one takes proper precautions until the dog has proven him/herself trustworthy.
And yes, I have experience dealing with mature dogs with problems that I managed to resolve successfully. Not to mention several dogs I taught to be reliable off leash in the city, back when there were no leash laws. Dogs trained by me would not cross a street unless at heel. Back in the day we didn't consider that too big a deal.
My apologies. It was done in haste. (If it makes you feel better, rereading my post, it wasn't the only spelling error.)
I have no doubts about your capabilities, friend. We differ on several things, and agree on several things, but it's obvious you know what you're talking about. That being said, I wouldn't be able to achieve the high-level of behavior I desire to create without using a crate, and I don't know of any professional who can, with any breed, much less a Basenji.
My initial comment was a response to the OP regarding his inquiry about using the crate more effectively. But in my last post I directed it to everyone else who wondered about the point of using a crate.
I hope to one day be able to make high quality videos of me training different skills with a Basenji puppy, but I don't know how to use cameras. Perhaps I'll hire a professional.
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Thank you all for your replies. And it's always good to hear different views.
Longer term I certainly don't intend to crate him when I'm home but I can see the value in (a) getting him comfortable in there for when I do need to crate him when I'm out and (b) using it to get myself a little breathing room while he's settling in, so training for a dog who's happy in his crate is definitely a priority even if I hope not to have to do it all that often.
Once he's had all his shots and is close to adult size, I intend to run with him in the mornings (I usually do about 10 km) and give him a hourlong evening walk which I hope will give him enough exercise and entertainment to keep him settled during the work day. That feels like it might be close to a year before he's up to that kind of exercise load though so it's great to have some strategies for his puppy phase.
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@Scagnetti said in Wet weather exercise:
My apologies. It was done in haste. (If it makes you feel better, rereading my post, it wasn't the only spelling error.)
It's just that 3 x e makes no sense! eeee=for ease, which is what we labelled out farm (yes, irony!)
"In order to get along with a Basenji, you have to be at least half as smart as the dog!"
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@Scagnetti said in Wet weather exercise:
I wouldn't be able to achieve the high-level of behavior I desire to create without using a crate, and I don't know of any professional who can, with any breed, much less a Basenji.
No question, Basenjis can be difficult. Personally I think they are less of a challenge than most scent hounds.
I'm editing this post because this is turning into a thread hijack, but suffice it to say IMO the mental leash is stronger by far than the physical one, and if you can get your dog on your wavelength then anything is possible. The more practice the dog gets in controlling himself rather than being controlled the better he will fit into the household. As I said previously, they don't learn when they can't make mistakes.
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@t89rex said in Wet weather exercise:
That feels like it might be close to a year before he's up to that kind of exercise
You certainly shouldn't embark on 10 km (6 mile) runs before he is structurally up to it ! There are all kinds of theories about distances for young puppies. Personally, with 40 years of experience and anything from 1 to 8 Basenjis at a time, I find they let you know when they have had enough. And having a sling to carry a small dog in is a godsend.
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@eeeefarm said in Wet weather exercise:
@Scagnetti said in Wet weather exercise:
I wouldn't be able to achieve the high-level of behavior I desire to create without using a crate, and I don't know of any professional who can, with any breed, much less a Basenji.
No question, Basenjis can be difficult. Personally I think they are less of a challenge than most scent hounds.
I'm editing this post because this is turning into a thread hijack, but suffice it to say IMO the mental leash is stronger by far than the physical one, and if you can get your dog on your wavelength then anything is possible. The more practice the dog gets in controlling himself rather than being controlled the better he will fit into the household. As I said previously, they don't learn when they can't make mistakes.
I'm not sure what this is in reference to. I made no mention of a leash and a mental leash isn't going to do what a crate does. Although I think the mental leash, as you call it, is necessary as well, but it's not the same as a crate, they accomplish different things. The concept of self-control in dogs is absolutely paramount, but that concept isn't a tool, the crate is a tool that can do so many things so very effectively.
I would've liked to know what your original post said, perhaps there would be more context for me regarding the thrust of your point about a mental leash.
And I feel I should say this: there are a million ways to effectively train a dog. The tools used, the exercises done, and the focus given on specific skills, is all individualized to the dog in front of you. What works for one dog may never work for another dog. Another element is the trainer and how they act and live and what they project. The advice I give on this forum is general good practice information and standard behavior modification protocol. When I have enough information to give specific advice, I do so. But most of the time, and especially with puppies, there are just standard exercises that need to be done, and crate training is one of them. I don't say this is true of you, but most people who are against crates, don't know how to properly use them or even what they're used for. When someone does in fact want to know how to effectively use a crate, I'm happy to explain how.
@t89rex said in Wet weather exercise:
Thank you all for your replies. And it's always good to hear different views.
Longer term I certainly don't intend to crate him when I'm home but I can see the value in (a) getting him comfortable in there for when I do need to crate him when I'm out and (b) using it to get myself a little breathing room while he's settling in, so training for a dog who's happy in his crate is definitely a priority even if I hope not to have to do it all that often.
Once he's had all his shots and is close to adult size, I intend to run with him in the mornings (I usually do about 10 km) and give him a hourlong evening walk which I hope will give him enough exercise and entertainment to keep him settled during the work day. That feels like it might be close to a year before he's up to that kind of exercise load though so it's great to have some strategies for his puppy phase.
Very smart! Walking a puppy is often the worst way to exercise them.
I would suggest taking the dog to an enclosed area like a fenced off back yard or a giant field with a long lead, and do engagement work, i.e. chase with food with the dog activating you.
How it's done:
Have a bowl with some treats (I do this with their meal) placed where it's easy for you to access but impossible for him to reach.
Take some food in your hand and wait for him to look at you. Once he gives you eye contact, run backward, away from him and let him chase you.
When he catches up to you, stop and give him food. Then wait for him to give you eye contact again and run when he does. Keep doing this, running around, feeding him until the food's gone.
This teaches many things, one of them is that the dog learns that his behavior and actions have a direct effect on you and what you do.
When the dog learns that he's the one making you move, he loves it and really gets into the activity.
Another thing this exercise does is strengthen your relationship; this is invaluable.
Also, this activity will help get your dog used to following you and running to you instead of away from you, making the recall process a little bit easier because the dog already knows how to run back to you and already loves doing it.
If you're serious about training, and care about communicating with your dog, you can use markers (or a clicker) in this exercise, if you've already charged them. Before you start the session use your begin marker (mine is "ready"). Whenever the dog looks at you mark it with your positive marker (mine is "yes") and then run. And when you've come to the end of the session, use your finished marker (mine is "all done").
There is no doubt that this is an athletic endeavor. I've seen several people hurt themselves badly by tripping over themselves, and have heard of other people hurting themselves by running into something, which is why you need an open space for this exercise. A field with a long lead is usually the solution for apartment dwellers.
All the best.
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@Scagnetti said in Wet weather exercise:
What works for one dog may never work for another dog.
Truer words....
My point about the mental vs physical leash wasn't leash specific, just that physical control no matter via what tool doesn't allow the dog the chance to make mistakes and learn.
When I started with dogs nobody used crates except for dog shows. Confining to a room was about as far as it went with puppies until they were housebroken and learned the behaviour expected of them.
Agreed, everyone has different requirements of their dog. e.g. in our family growing up, there were rooms that were off limits. We didn't close doors, we taught the dog to stay out of those rooms and he complied. Our family dog knew high level obedience, although he was never shown. And never received food rewards, only praise.
"In order to get along with a Basenji, you have to be at least half as smart as the dog!"
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@eeeefarm said in Wet weather exercise:
eeee=for ease
you did a fly-by....
eeee=for ease -?-@eeeefarm said in Wet weather exercise:
I'm editing this post because this is turning into a thread hijack
IMHO, so much worthwhile information!
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@eeeefarm said in Wet weather exercise:
physical control no matter via what tool doesn't allow the dog the chance to make mistakes and learn.
I agree there - 100 %. I'm not a trainer but for 41 years now I have owned, bred and showed Basenjis so am not exactly inexperienced at getting my dogs to behave and conform and have fun !
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@eeeefarm said in Wet weather exercise:
@Scagnetti said in Wet weather exercise:
What works for one dog may never work for another dog.
Truer words....
My point about the mental vs physical leash wasn't leash specific, just that physical control no matter via what tool doesn't allow the dog the chance to make mistakes and learn.
When I started with dogs nobody used crates except for dog shows. Confining to a room was about as far as it went with puppies until they were housebroken and learned the behaviour expected of them.
Agreed, everyone has different requirements of their dog. e.g. in our family growing up, there were rooms that were off limits. We didn't close doors, we taught the dog to stay out of those rooms and he complied. Our family dog knew high level obedience, although he was never shown. And never received food rewards, only praise.
Dogs have no difficulty making mistakes. Mistake-making is inevitable. Your argument reminds me of trainers that go out of their way to train negative markers and corrective markers. You don't need to set a dog up for failure, he'll get there on his own. The important thing is knowing what to do when they do fail.
Also, there's a time and place for everything. In the house, I don't want them rehearsing bad behavior or making mistakes. And for what it's worth, making mistakes isn't the only way of learning, in fact it's not even the best way of learning.
Crates have been used for a very long time. Definitely not as popular as now, but they were absolutely still used. Perhaps their use in dog clubs around you were rare, but sport dog owners have been using them a long time, as well as protection dog owners.
I have never shown a dog and never will. Dog showing and dog training are different activities. There's an amount of training needed to show, but it isn't even close to the same thing as the intensive, all-around training needed for an IPO dog or a Schutzhund dog.
In the end, there's only one real consideration for pet dog owners: what can you live with? If you can live with your dog, then you're doing the right thing.
All love.
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@Zande - Agree with both Zande and eeeefarm.... Same with me, I am a trainer for my own dogs or ones that I bred/placed, shown in both conformation and performance. Mine learn manners from birth if whelped here.... that said when I am home, they are with the family, period... only time they are not is as unweaned babies, they spend time with their littermates, split with the family and in their puppy pens, but even that is in my office off the family room/kitchen so they hear/see the activity. I have never had an issue crate training.... they are comfortable in their kennels...
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@Scagnetti said in Wet weather exercise:
In the end, there's only one real consideration for pet dog owners: what can you live with? If you can live with your dog, then you're doing the right thing.
Absolutely agree with this.
I take it you are into IPO/Schutzhund, which is not my sport. Sheepdogs are more my thing. It was interesting having both a Border Collie and Basenjis, completely different temperaments. Sheepdogs are the most biddable of creatures and will work hard for your praise alone. Basenjis definitely want to know what is in it for them!
I think one of the training mistakes is that people use R+ without really understanding operant conditioning. IMO, clicker training is great for teaching new behaviours but so many miss the bit about changing to intermittent rewards. Once a behaviour is on cue it doesn't require constant reinforcement. That can create a dog that will only work when there is an ample supply of treats available and/or the dog is not sated. Treats or for that matter praise lose value when too readily available. Also, it helps to know when and how to use the other tools in the bag....
I think that most of us can find the reason for our problem dog (or horse) by looking in the mirror!
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@Scagnetti said in Wet weather exercise:
In the end, there's only one real consideration for pet dog owners: what can you live with? If you can live with your dog, then you're doing the right thing.
agree,
@eeeefarm said in Wet weather exercise:
I think that most of us can find the reason for our problem dog (or horse) by looking in the mirror!
and agree,
I wish I could take the credit for Doodle. But she was trained and taught before I brought her home. It didn't take long for us to become acclimated to each other and learn how to communicate. She's perfect (for me) and continues to absolutely adore my son! Thank you Janice (and all of her other owner/trainers)!
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@elbrant said in Wet weather exercise:
I wish I could take the credit for Doodle. But she was trained and taught before I brought her home.
If she is still reliable you can take credit for that. So many times a well trained animal goes to a new home and within months the good manners and training evaporates. Seen it many, many times with horses, not quite so often with dogs but they don't tend to change hands so often.
Unfortunately people often reinforce bad behaviour without being aware of what they are doing, and then complain because the "stupid" animal has developed bad habits!
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@eeeefarm said in Wet weather exercise:
@Scagnetti said in Wet weather exercise:
In the end, there's only one real consideration for pet dog owners: what can you live with? If you can live with your dog, then you're doing the right thing.
Absolutely agree with this.
I take it you are into IPO/Schutzhund, which is not my sport. Sheepdogs are more my thing. It was interesting having both a Border Collie and Basenjis, completely different temperaments. Sheepdogs are the most biddable of creatures and will work hard for your praise alone. Basenjis definitely want to know what is in it for them!
I think one of the training mistakes is that people use R+ without really understanding operant conditioning. IMO, clicker training is great for teaching new behaviours but so many miss the bit about changing to intermittent rewards. Once a behaviour is on cue it doesn't require constant reinforcement. That can create a dog that will only work when there is an ample supply of treats available and/or the dog is not sated. Treats or for that matter praise lose value when too readily available. Also, it helps to know when and how to use the other tools in the bag....
I think that most of us can find the reason for our problem dog (or horse) by looking in the mirror!
Yep. But I'm into it all, really: AKC Obedience, Rally, etc.
Also bomb-sniffing dogs, police K9 training, etc.
Pretty much everything except showing.
And yes, most people don't know how or when to change the reward schedules to intermittent reinforcements and then random reinforcements.
@eeeefarm said in Wet weather exercise:
I think that most of us can find the reason for our problem dog (or horse) by looking in the mirror!
This is absolutely so.
That being said, I've never had a problem dog. -
@eeeefarm said in Wet weather exercise:
@elbrant said in Wet weather exercise:
I wish I could take the credit for Doodle. But she was trained and taught before I brought her home.
If she is still reliable you can take credit for that. So many times a well trained animal goes to a new home and within months the good manners and training evaporates. Seen it many, many times with horses, not quite so often with dogs but they don't tend to change hands so often.
Unfortunately people often reinforce bad behaviour without being aware of what they are doing, and then complain because the "stupid" animal has developed bad habits!
I concur. If it isn't maintained, then behaviors erode.
