The phrase one most dreads is 'papers are not important' - because they ARE, even if you only want a pet and never intend to show or breed. But I have seen (scans from US) so-called Bills of Sale with a couple of call names scribbled on as parents. That is not ethical ! Purchasers should be given the registered names of parents so they can make a check that both are health tested. But therein lies another rub. Often the parents are neither registered nor health tested.
Over here the Kennel Club requires the breeder to register the entire litter, not sell pups and let new owners register (or not). But particularly since covid and the soaring demand for puppies, some people have bred litters with no intention of registering them. And no thought for health or compatibility of blood lines. Its all very worrying.
It's the law in Canada that no dog may be sold as purebred without being registered. "Any breeder selling a dog as purebred must register the dog and provide the new owner with the registration certificate within six months of the date of sale – this is the law, as required under the Animal Pedigree Act. " Of course, having a law and enforcing it are two different things....
"In order to get along with a Basenji, you have to be at least half as smart as the dog!"
@eeeefarm said in solving the "bad breeder" problem::
It's the law in Canada that no dog may be sold as purebred without being registered
I didn't know about that, but it is closely related to my concept of finding some "governing" body that would be able to regulate pure-bred animals in some fashion.
@eeeefarm said in solving the "bad breeder" problem::
having a law and enforcing it are two different things....
Exactly! Which was another point I was trying to make. We all need to understand that, regardless of our efforts, there will always be people who are "bad breeders". It's the whole ying & yang of the universe. There is always an "equal and opposite action".
@elbrant said in solving the "bad breeder" problem::
We all need to understand that, regardless of our efforts, there will always be people who are "bad breeders". It's the whole ying & yang of the universe. There is always an "equal and opposite action"
Which makes it all the more important that people be made aware of who is who, and who to avoid when making such an important purchase as a Basenji. No-one is seeking to change the status quo. We recognise it can't happen. But we do seek to let folks know more about the pitfalls and dangers.
@zande - Totally agree. Keep in mind that at least in the US, responsible breeders all KNOW each other.... when ones pop up or that been known as irresponsible breeders they need to be called out.
Among other things @elbrant, that is precisely what @tanza has been doing for years ! Advising them which site to go to to check parents have been health tested, telling them to make sure they get parents registered names, warning them of all kinds of things. But then, when things DO go wrong, being there to advise, with compassion and care. Advising people to go to Vets, even suggesting appropriate vets. Knowing that because a medication or food works for one dog, veterinary care should be sought before 'experimenting' on another which may well have totally different symptoms.
Above all, warning them that there ARE puppy farmers out there, and irresponsible breeders and how to identify them.
@zande - For sure Zande.... Thank you for that post and I now encourage people to go to FB Group and check out Basenji Puppies/Puppys/Puppy’s: Get Educated BEFORE you BUY! Names are there as we as responsible breeders do call out people/puppy mills/backyard breeders by name. Please note this is NOT without verification... lack of health testing, placing ill/sick puppies, no registration information (sire/dam pedigree)... etc... Even responsible breeders can have "shit" happen with pups/litters... however they are upfront and honest with this....
@zande said in solving the "bad breeder" problem::
that is precisely what @tanza has been doing for years
The problem with @tanza's (prior?) approach, first and foremost, she is pointing her finger at a specific person instead of using general terms describing indicators of a "bad breeder". Secondly, she is focusing on "helping" one person at a time.
What I am suggesting is something that would reach masses of people, not just one or two here and there. Perhaps the FB group is a good start.
@tanza I do hope that you can transition from naming names to discussing the traits of good vs bad breeding practices. Discussions that would be welcomed here.
@elbrant - Not to take this past this post, Elbrant, but unless we call out breeders that are irresponsible breeders.... it really does not help people.... that said, yes I am sure that there are many that got puppies that would be considered from not so responsible breeders and I hope that their pups have been health tested.... if not, please do so...
@elbrant said in solving the "bad breeder" problem::
@tanza I do hope that you can transition from naming names to discussing the traits of good vs bad breeding practices
@tanza already does ! do they, don't they health test ? do they, don't they support new owners ? do they, don't they provide accurate names of registered parents ? Do they, don't they . . . so many different aspects - along with recommendations to visit OFA.
Some people buy from BYBs and puppy mills and get lucky. They go home with a healthy pup who has had some semblance of training, is healthy and can easily be registered because the correct paperwork is forthcoming. Others don't.
to me you wrote Secondly, she is focusing on "helping" one person at a time.
But @elbrant, on the forum are so many individual owners with different problems - who need individual responses to their own specific need for help, advice, or even just to learn. It is great when other owners join in with advice and anecdotes of their own experiences in similar circumstances.
So I honestly don't see how you can complain that @tanza @me (zande), @eeeefarm, @so-many-helpful-people on this forum address one person's specific problems at a time.
@zande said in solving the "bad breeder" problem::
address one person's specific problems at a time.
...and in doing so, inform others who may have the same issue but were hesitant to post about it....
Not to mention non members who may monitor the forum but not join. IMO, the whole purpose of having a breed forum is to provide advice and support for anyone having difficulties in health, training, etc. and to a lesser extent for sharing amusing stories about our favourite breed.
@zande said in solving the "bad breeder" problem::
I honestly don't see how you can complain that @tanza @me (zande), @eeeefarm, @so-many-helpful-people on this forum address one person's specific problems at a time.
I commented that @tanza's approach was only reaching one person at a time. I also said that we should be reaching the multitudes of people looking into bringing home a puppy. It wasn't a complaint (about anyone). It was an observation and an analysis of undesirable effectiveness in comparison with this discussion, which we (collectively) should be using to consider potential ways to reach a vast number of people.
@tanza said in solving the "bad breeder" problem::
unless we call out breeders that are irresponsible breeders.... it really does not help people....
This discussion is not an opportunity to whine about not being allowed to "call out irresponsible breeders". Doing that could be interpreted as "slander, libel, and/or defamation of character". Things that the Forum could be sued for. It's not up for debate. I cannot, in good faith, allow it.
@elbrant - Well then Elbrant you know nothing about breeding or responsible breeders... We are NOT whining about them, we are calling them out for irresponsible breeding.. and selling puppies. Not slander if you can provide proof of what you are posting... and which responsible people are posting... so either allow this or change the Forum to be talking about dogs and NOT breeders that are irresponsible. And I would say that you need to go to www.basenji.org and learn about Basenjis and breeding... You are not a breeder and do not know that breed... please learn about the breed... And if that is the case then people coming for help should be sent to a site that will talk about their pups breeders and where the problems might have come from.. along with their pedigrees... Yes there are pups that have issues... and from responsible breeders and I don't think that anyone here called out breeders that are in that case... as we all know "crap" happens... but those breeders are in touch with their puppy owners... and know their pups pedigrees and health testing that has been done. When you got you girl it was from a responsible breeder that will be with you regardless... not just brush you off to "Oh well" even if this was a adult... breeders that place adults care about their Basenjis, period!
@elbrant said in solving the "bad breeder" problem::
Things that the Forum could be sued for.
I believe this is the problem in a nutshell. An observation: if something is a fact, and provable, it is not libel. I think it is absolutely fair ball to mention that "so & so" breeder has not tested for particular conditions, as this is a matter of public record and beyond dispute. It is also fair to state any provable fact, but that should be left up to the individual, e.g. "my puppy has "such & such" condition, and my puppy came from "so & so" breeder with this existing condition. Or "so & so" breeder will not take back this puppy who was sold to me unwell. If someone makes such a claim second hand it is hearsay. I understand the legal implications. This should have been brought up sooner, it would have saved a lot of grief.
@eeeefarm said in solving the "bad breeder" problem::
@elbrant said in solving the "bad breeder" problem::
Things that the Forum could be sued for.
I believe this is the problem in a nutshell. An observation: if something is a fact, and provable, it is not libel. I think it is absolutely fair ball to mention that "so & so" breeder has not tested for particular conditions, as this is a matter of public record and beyond dispute. It is also fair to state any provable fact, but that should be left up to the individual, e.g. "my puppy has "such & such" condition, and my puppy came from "so & so" breeder with this existing condition. Or "so & so" breeder will not take back this puppy who was sold to me unwell. If someone makes such a claim second hand it is hearsay. I the legal implications. This should have been brought up sooner, it would have saved a lot of grief.
BINGO! I thought about posting something similar. Facts are not Libel. I don't want to dog pile (see what I did there. 
) @elbrant. She's in a tough spot as moderator. It isn't her site and she didn't write the rules. She's doing her best.
That said, I would hope the site owner is paying attention to the two recent threads that are focused on this issue of calling out irresponsible breeders with facts. I would hope that some latitude could be created to make @elbrant's job a little easier while allowing people with facts to share them here. It protects the dog, the breed and future owners from misery. There must be a middle ground here if we look for it. Just my two cents.
@tanza said in solving the "bad breeder" problem::
you know nothing about breeding ...
In all fairness, @tanza, you don't have any idea where my breadth of knowledge lies. I have previously stated that I have no desire to become a breeder, but that isn't the point. Is it? You are venting because I am firmly standing my ground. We've been through this discussion before and I'd wager that we will do it again. Over the same thing, ad nauseam.
either allow this or ...
I understand that you are frustrated.
@eeeefarm said in solving the "bad breeder" problem::
It is also fair to state any provable fact, but that should be left up to the individual, e.g. "my puppy has "such & such" condition, and my puppy came from "so & so" breeder with this existing condition.
I agree with this, provided there is a way to prove that the illness could have been prevented by the breeder. That doesn't mean that every illness is breeder related. For example: Parvo and Giardia are widespread issues commonly contracted from one infected animal coming into contact with another, before or after the pup leaves the breeder. A pup with Giardia isn't necessarily a result of poor care by the breeder because it would be almost impossible to determine where the pup was infected.
I think we should avoid referring to a breeder using subjective terms like: bad, irresponsible, etc. You cannot prove an opinion. If someone sees a statement (like that) about them and decides to contact an attorney, you and I aren't the ones who would be going to court.
@JENGOSMonkey Thank you for your two cents (I liked the image, too). You are right. Most of what I do as a "moderator" is banning people who create profiles for commercial websites to improve their Google rank. I feel like if I kick them off right away, they won't bother us with inappropriate posts. I have banned over 2,000 profiles (so far), looks like I have 3 or 4 more to tend to today.
