Hi..does anyone have a Basenji through breeder Richard Hanna?

[tanza]

@elbrant - Very sorry Elbrant but this is a known person that sold sick dogs... it is not "trash" talk... and I take offence that you continue to delete posts that talk about "breeders" and I use that term loosely that do not breed in a responsible manner.

[elbrant]

@tanza said in Hi..does anyone have a Basenji through breeder Richard Hanna?:

I take offence

Noted.

"If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all."

[Zande]

Sorry but if a breeder is causing suffering and not being responsible for the well being of his / her dogs, that should not be hidden or glossed over. People need to know. And these so called breeders put out of business.

[JENGOSMonkey]

@zande

[tanza]

Many years ago on this site there were many to talked about breeders that were not responsible... and we had many conversations... so I think that this should be able to be posted on bad breeders.. Yes it is sad that this person passed... but the point is that people need to understand that there are bad breeders and how to find a responsible breeder. And it is a good thing that there will not be any Basenjis produced.... and kudos to the people that took these pups into their home and are trying to get them in good health... best to find good breeders and you can go to https://bconc.org/finding-breeders-red-flags. It is important that you go and support a responsible breeder

[elbrant]

@zande He is out of business... he's dead.

[elbrant]

@tanza People need to know how to determine if any breeder is being responsible to the breed and their dogs. That doesn't mean that we need to name names, point fingers, or tell everyone that you think so-and-so is a bad person/breeder/human being for x-y-z reasons. Especially with this particular thread. The guy is dead. His remaining dogs have been adopted (hopefully to responsible owners).

This thread was asking about others pups from this particular breeder so they ccould compare notes and share information. That, to me, seems reasonable. I do not believe this thread was created to berate the man.

If you want to create posts about what is good vs bad about breeders using your knowledge and experience, go for it. Do it without naming them. If you want to call them out, mail them a personal letter, or email them, and express your dissatisfaction with their breeding program to them specifically and privately. Either way, keep it off the forum.

[Zande]

@elbrant said in Hi..does anyone have a Basenji through breeder Richard Hanna?:

@zande He is out of business... he's dead.

But sadly there are too many others out there whose activities should be widely publicised to protect the puppies, the breeding stock and the owners.

I am sure you will remember the thousands of dollars paid to vets in abortive attempts to save those puppies a couple of years back ? As I recall, there were multiple litters and about 26 puppies. At least 9 of them didn't make it to their first birthday. Many had a short but painful time on this earth.

Maybe you don't remember. We had to take mention of them and the breeder off the forum. But the conversations went on elsewhere and future puppies and owners were protected from that breeder.

It should have happened here.

[elbrant]

(Yes, @zande, I remember that.)

According to the Forum Rules, "outing" bad breeders is not our focus.

Discuss how to determine what makes a breeder "respectable" all you want. Not a link, a discussion. Allow others the chance to ask questions and engage us as a group. People don't all agree. Nor do we all comprehend things in exactly the same way. We are responsible for our own decisions, opinions, beliefs, actions, and ultimately, what anyone chooses to do is up to them.

If you expect someone else to respect your opinion, you must first understand that they are entitled to an opinion of their own.

[eeeefarm]

@elbrant said in Hi..does anyone have a Basenji through breeder Richard Hanna?:

If you expect someone else to respect your opinion, you must first understand that they are entitled to an opinion of their own.

So, under that logic, can't someone voice their opinion that "so & so" is an irresponsible breeder? Or at least clarify that the individual in question is not on record doing recommended health testing on his/her dogs? I should think that is fair ball....

[elbrant]

@eeeefarm said in Hi..does anyone have a Basenji through breeder Richard Hanna?:

can't someone voice their opinion that "so & so" is an irresponsible breeder?

The "rules" indicate that we shouldn't be "rude", "let a difference of opinion turn into a personal attack", or "bash other members". (minimal paraphrasing)

Even if the breeder in question isn't a member, attacking someone behind their back isn't the answer. If you don't like something you "found out about"? Discuss it with a little diplomacy. Open a thread that indicates that you heard about a breeder who fill in the blank is/isn't responsible, reliable, etc. You can discuss how concerned/upset/frustrated/or pleased you are with something you just heard about for whatever reason. And keep in mind that there is a big difference between an opinion about something and stating something as fact.

[tanza]

@elbrant - Have to say, you are totally out of line for what this Forum was made for.... People need to call out about irresponsible breeders... dead or alive... this person that started this thread is what they where asking about

[Zande]

@elbrant In that thread, the purchaser of a VERY sick puppy, sick from the moment he was collected from his breeder, was seeking help from the forum. He wanted suggestions as to what might be wrong and how to help the poor animal. It didn't live to see its first birthday and should probably have been put out of its misery earlier. The owner made contact via the forum with three or four others, also with sick puppies from this same kennel.

He was not seeking to point any fingers, he was genuinely crying himself to sleep with worry about his sick Basenji puppy, and he needed help and probably sympathy too.

I did not understand why he was kicked off the Forum then and I don't understand where you are coming from now. Surely we are here to HELP other Basenji owners ?

There are opinions and there is positive knowledge and experience. They should not be confused.

[elbrant]

@tanza said in Hi..does anyone have a Basenji through breeder Richard Hanna?:

you are totally out of line

Noted.

People need to call out about irresponsible breeders...

That would be considered a "personal attack", wouldn't it? Which isn't in line with the Forum Rules.

@zande said in Hi..does anyone have a Basenji through breeder Richard Hanna?:

In that thread, the purchaser of a VERY sick puppy, sick from the moment he was collected from his breeder, was seeking help from the forum

Unfortunately, that particular person was also lashing out at anyone who provided an answer or suggestion that he didn't like. I chatted with him privately, but in the end, he was banned as a result of his actions and nothing else.

I don't understand where you are coming from now.

I think the focus should be on the dog(s) recovery, not on their past. These 4 dogs were rescued from a horrible existence. Their owner was dying (which can take years) and clearly, none of his family/neighbors/friends/etc. stepped up to help him.

The way I read the OP (original post was that @basenjigrandma wanted to compare notes on problems and illnesses. I did not see an intention of dragging the man's name through the mud, however, I promptly stated that the rules discourage that type of behavior when it appeared that we were heading into a verbal brawl.

The Forum Rules clearly state: "Don't ... make an argument personal".
Attacking someone (member/non member, dead/alive) is quite personal.

If anyone remains confused, please take a minute or two to actually read the rules.

[tanza]

@elbrant - I am curious, does Alex agree with your "reading" of the rules of the Forum? Those of us that have been in the breed for 35+ and more years, know breeders and who are responsible breeders and who is not... they need to be called out. We are NOT Trashing... these people, only their breeding practices that they do not test before breeding, raise pups outside, chain them up.... etc...

[elbrant]

@tanza Are you suggesting that there is ambiguity in these bullet points?

• "Don't be rude to others, or make an argument personal."

• "Know the difference between a difference of opinion and a personal attack."

• "Don't try to "win" an argument by repeating yourself over and over."

You've expressed yourself clearly, you want to "call out" any breeder that doesn't meet your standards.

@tanza said in Hi..does anyone have a Basenji through breeder Richard Hanna?:

they need to be called out.

Please do it somewhere else.

[eeeefarm]

If I am understanding Tanza's point correctly, then it isn't about a difference of opinion, but a statement of fact. A breeder has either done health tests or he/she hasn't. I think it is fair to point out factual information that perspective puppy buyers should be aware of.....I don't read that as a "personal attack".

[tanza]

@eeeefarm - Yes you read my point correctly. There are many NOT responsible breeders out there that "lie" to prospective buyers about health testing.... saying "yes" they are tested when in fact they are NOT.

[Zande]

@tanza Which is why we keep hammering the point that puppy purchasers should make sure the parents of puppies they contemplate purchasing have actually been health tested. A visit to the OFA website will show this. Far too many pups are purchased from puppy farmers who do lie about testing.

Or, almost as bad, don't alert the new owner to the importance of health testing or properly support them at need

[elbrant]

@eeeefarm, @tanza, @Zande With all due respect, you are going about this the wrong way. This should not be a disagreement about the rules on this Forum. The rules are the rules, period. Online complaints about this breeder or that breeder is pointless. The only thing it accomplishes is to raise your blood pressure. It doesn't solve the problem.

Please join me in the Better Breeders group if you would like to be part of the solution.