Need some creative thinkers for confinement "anxiety" issue

[Timesthemyth]

Crating would be a last option I'm afraid…like literally last option. I just can't see him being 'ok' in a crate even with treats. In the past he's hurt himself trying to get out of crates, as well as gotten to the point of defecation out of anxiety.....as a puppy I tried crating, stupidly thinking I could just "make" him do it. He tore a hole through the crate and I found him with his head stuck out of the hole - not good.

[kjdonkers]

I have no technical ideas but we have trained with Lela and Binti to be alone in the living room. First short intervals, then longer. It takes a while. Yesterday we had to leave for 3,5 hours and they couldn't stay with friends, so we left them: first a good run, then a good meal. Lots of fleeces around and an otherwise clean room. It went well.
Otherwise, our B' are not really interested in escaping. Even when we leave the garden gate open accidentally, the might venture outside a few feet, just to sniff, but they will come running when we make a sound with a treat bag. Guess we're lucky.

[DebraDownSouth]

I am afraid I am not going to be what you want to hear.

Dogs need to be able to be crated. Need. If he gets hurt or sick and has to be hospitalized, his stress over crating at that point can truly damage his ability to get well. He needs to learn.

Because I feel that strongly about it, I would suggest you do whatever you have to do, including tranquilizers, to get him used to a closed crate. They do make indestructible ones, which are expensive but less than him destroying your apartment, you being made to move over the damage, or him eating something that ends up with blockage surgery. I have a friend who specialized in separation anxiety and crate issues. She said she never had a single dog she couldn't help the owners train. You simply start over new, put in crate for all feeding, then feeding with door shut, then work on toys and in crate with shut 10 mins. next time 15.. keep building up. If you have to sedate a bit, in the long run, your dog's life can be at stake so talk to your vet.

The only other option is to make perhaps your bathroom dog proof and lock in there. But ultimately, 4 hrs of crating is not unreasonable to expect of any dog who has not been horribly abused in one. (I had a lhasa rescue that was confined in a crate for almost 5 yrs… took rescue hours of soaking just to be able to get her coat soft enough to start hacking off her, nails curled into feet.. dear spirits if I saw the person responsible I'd gladly go to jail for the beating I'd give her... And it took me almost 8 mos to be able to get her back in a crate relaxed to take to vet trips.)

[agilebasenji]

DAP may (or may not) help, but I think worth a try.

http://www.amazon.com/Comfort-Zone-Diffuser-Single-Refill/dp/B003E71E06/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1378823282&sr=8-1&keywords=dap

I've used it; zero side effects so if it doesn't work, no harm done

[agilebasenji]

i also agree with DDS about crates, but that's a training issue. you should not keep the dog in the crate while your gone while you're training the dog to get used to the crate if the dog is phobic about the crate. Susan Garrett's Crate Games is great for this.

[Timesthemyth]

kjdonkers
Doesn?t sound like luck to me! Just good old fashioned time and effort that went into the training.

DebraDownSouth

I absolutely agree with you. When I first decided that the basenji was going to be the breed for me, I was 100% dedicated to having the dog crate trained. It wasn?t even negotiable. I couldn?t even comprehend why people DIDN?T crate their dogs?now I?m starting to understand a little better.

I started putting him into a crate as a puppy; doing crate games. ?not going to him if he cried?, slowly building up the time in small increments, leaving special treats. The works. Whatever anxiety he has now has been the result of at least a year of day-in-day-out training since he was 12 weeks old or so; as unbelievable as that sounds. The day that I decided to stop trying to get him used to the crate was the day he chewed a hole through the crate and got his neck stuck on a pointed edge.

But, I did buy wire crate, just haven?t really built up the courage to try this whole training thing again?Not something I?m proud of.

Sedatives would definitely be a good option, as we haven?t tried that yet. Thanks.

agilebasenji

The DAP idea is a good alternative. I?ve tried rescue remedy but had little success so hoping for something a little stronger next time.

[ownedbyspencer]

I feel for you. Ava has confinement issues and was cratephobic. Crate training was awful, but for all the reasons others have pointed out, we had to do it. The good news is, it doesn't sound like Beo has separation anxiety and his confinement issues don't sound like a phobia. He'd just rather not be confined. If you went back and started from square one, I bet you could have him crate trained in less time than you think.

Some of the best advice I got was to sit outside the crate with the door closed and very slowly feed Ava her entire meal through the wire door, one kibble at a time, using very small kibble. Afterward, I would sit there and play with her, slipping her small bits of treats until I could sense she was about to protest. We worked up to over an hour of confinement twice a day, building from there. There are other tricks that help, and if you don't have a problem with Beo going to the bathroom in the crate, the wire crate is less confining. Sometimes, a TV or radio will help. Good luck! I've been there and I know it's frustrating.

[Timesthemyth]

ownedbyspencer

Thanks for the advice, and your personal experiences with crate training Ava. I'm going to try the kibble exercise when I eventually reintroduce him to the crate. Just out of curiosity, how long do you think it took you to get her to be comfortable with the crate? And had she had any previous trauma or just not a crate dog?

Beo is definitely not the most 'difficult' case out there so I'm sure it's just a matter of perseverance. I didn't think he had much separation anxiety - but set up video surveillance webcam today to see exactly what was going on. …looking at the footage I'm now thinking that it's a mixture of SA and crate anxiety. He had 15 minutes of cage pounding/screaming, using every trick he had to try and escape, 20 minutes of calm, 10 minutes of more crate pounding and shredding, followed by 30 minutes of calm followed by X more minutes of crying......by the time I came home he was laying down, calmly chewing on the kong but still had some minor crying....so that's two hours of periodic crying and getting worked up.

I'm sure his previous escapes helped to reinforce the idea that "freaking out" will get you free, and that will set us back a bit.

I set up an appointment with the vet to get him on 'temporary' Meds to at least get him in a state of mental calm..., from there I believe it will be very easy to get him habituated to being ok when left alone in the X pen ....then after that I'm going to try to reintroduce him to the crate. Going to the crate before this calm (and the idea that escape isn't possible) is fully established I think would be a mistake.

[agilebasenji]

have you read McConnell's I'll be home soon?

it might be worth consulting with a behaviorist - show the video and see what she thinks. it would probably cost a pretty penny, but it may shorten your training time and be easier/cheaper in the long run. Unfortunately, without seeing how bad it its, all of us can do is toss out suggestions that may or may not work.

[kjdonkers]

Timesthemyth: yes, we put in a lot of time and effort. More and more, I believe that training your dog is, first and foremost, training yourself. If and when you really get it, the dog will follow.

[ownedbyspencer]

It took a while– about 3-4 months. I consulted a behaviorist, who diagnosed Ava and helped me develop a plan for desensitizing her. If I couldn't be home with her, she went to daycare or had a dogsitter. It was expensive and I had to plan my entire life around Ava's schedule, but she was an extreme case and had a fear of confinement from day one. She had explosive diarrhea, uncontrollable urination and fullblown panic attacks where she would hurl herself, screaming, against the crate again and again, and it started the minute the door was closed. I couldn't leave her alone or she would have hurt herself badly. It wasn't just the crate-- she couldn't be confined in the car and she got very anxious when the doors of rooms were closed. But we worked through it, and now she's a very good girl in her crate. It can be done!

"I'll Be Home Soon" is a helpful read. The good thing about a behaviorist is that there's a big difference between boredom, frustration and fear. And separation anxiety isn't the same as fear of confinement. The right diagnosis can be a real shortcut in your training time and the methods you use. Your vet is a good start, though, and might be able to help you without the expense of a behaviorist.

[Timesthemyth]

So, we've taken two steps forward and one back. I put on Classical music the day before going to the vet - not a peep from him for 3 hours, not until the music went off (the last 30 minutes of him being alone) did he start making a fuss.

Went to the vet and got some Prozac ( a little miffed that the vet led me to believe that it would start working in a couple of days, but that's another issue) so he'll be on that as my backup plan.

I tried the same thing today, with the classical music, gave him some rescue remedy, put in a different clothing item of mine, and even bought a thundershirt to help alleviate the anxiety even more - even took extra steps to make sure he had positive associations with the thundershirt. Well, he started screaming after the first 20 minutes or so, less cage banging….but more cycles of screaming within a shorter period of time than the previous day. Of course he tore through the thunder-shirt in the process.

SO, bought a DAP infuser...going to try that out (with no expectations) and some relaxation treats (again...little expectation). Going to work with him over these next couple of days off with the hope that it'll start to sink in.. He hasn't escaped again yet, so that's the silver lining....though somehow he managed to steal the blanket off my bed and wedge it into the holes of the wire pen...crazy.

Started working with him on crate training, with the plastic crate until I can get my wire one here.....he managed to get a whole foot inside to get the treats....but even the lure of a pork hock was no good to get him all the way inside.

[agilebasenji]

can you take the plastic crate apart in 1/2? (some you can, some you cant) that may break things down into an even smaller increment.

this is an interesting book that may help:
http://www.amazon.com/Through-Dogs-Ear-Behavior-Companion/dp/1591798116/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1379036247&sr=8-4&keywords=through+a+dog%27s+ear

(it also has two cute basenjis on the cover, so it's basenji approved)

bummer about the thundershirt.

[Timesthemyth]

agilebasenji

Thanks for the tip - the plastic crate is two pieces so I might try that. Maybe start with the floor part.

I actually have Through a Dog's Ear (mostly bought it just because it had the two basenjis on the cover) thought it was an interesting read. I'm surprised that I didn't try the classical music sooner….since I should have known better from reading the text. The first day the music had l a magical transformation on him - just an amazing effect. I was so hopeful the second day that the music would have that same affect on him... but not meant to be. It obviously has helped though so that will be something to continue.

The thundershirt had my hopes high - as it obviously does work for calming....just can't leave a Basenji with anything that you don't want demolished....I'm going to try putting one of my old t-shirts on him and see what happens... since, oddly enough, the only things that seem to remain in tact while I'm gone are the toys and articles of clothing.

[agilebasenji]

did you have the radio on, or a recording? if it was the radio, maybe day 2 was marching music? (and your dog thought he'd just march right out of there.)

[Timesthemyth]

Ha, maybe he just has a discerning ear…and bach/chopin just isn't up to snuff or something. The first day was Pandora radio - classical music by a variety of artists I've never heard of. The second day I bought a mix classical sampler CD that had all the well known musicians.....the radio had more variety but I honestly can't see the difference. Maybe I'll test Pandora out again....to make sure he's not a music snob, and that it's all just coincidence.

[dchec]

Any update on how he's doing? I found this thread to be quite interesting to read, so I was just curious as to how it was going.

[Timesthemyth]

Ha, I know, forum posts are like a novel sometimes - except sometimes you don't always find out what happens at the end. There are lots of posts here where I'm like "well, what happened?!"

The long and short of it: we have a "success story".

He's always been kind of a strange dog, never doing things by the books. For his anxiety…...nothing I did really helped him.

I originally put him on Prozac as a last resort, but overtime he just improved on his own; I know it's not due to the medication, because he's been off of it for awhile.

He still hates confinement but he's learned that once he's in...he's not getting out. SO he basically goes through cycles where he'll whine for about a minute or two every so often (30 minutes to 2 hours) or so then goes back to sleep, until I get home. It gets better and better each time.

One of our biggest issues I think was him being able to escape, and that fear was feeding off itself. In the beginning he would pull out all the stunts to try and escape, some of them working of course. Once I made it so he could not escape, the major destruction and psychological issues died down. I ended up putting wood pieces around the crate (as suggested above) and that helped immensely to fortify the area.

He still does cry, and rip things up while I'm away...sure. But, as long as he isn't endangering himself, getting too worked up, or making a huge racket? It works.

After we got that solved. I moved onto trying to get him to be ok in a crate - which has been successful. He goes into it fine, lays down and doesn't cry a whole lot, or try to escape.

I think his 'anxiety' is not unusual, or inappropriate. Just a natural fear that dogs have of being alone, confined, and in a new space. I also didn't go over 30 minutes when I was teaching him as a puppy....big mistake.

Things that have helped: Music, not having the light on, making the pen one giant bed (instead of allowing an area where he could stand), leaving random tissues around in the pen, not letting him out of the pen directly after coming home, giving a single cookie before leaving and returning if quiet, having the area be inescapable obviously, and brushing his teeth if he comes out of the pen right away.

Things that didn't really help: thunder shirt (was working until he ripped it up), medication, mirror outside of the pen, leaving delicious food or toys inside the pen, DAP diffuser, etc.