Just need to vent - *@^@#$ Fanconi!

[DebraDownSouth]

I am glad the pilling is going better but sorry she is not doing so good.

I wish that Fanconi owners would make a web page of the horrors of this disease to share with people who don't test their dogs, both their pets and those they breed. So many pet owners from byb/puppymill/rescue that aren't tested.

[nomrbddgs]

I'm really sorry she's not doing better, this will be hard on you.

I have to agree with Kathy. When a dog is constantly avoiding being pilled, to the point of avoidance of feeding times, you have to make a decision if it's worth it or not. I would think, at this point, the dog would be trying to tell you it is tired of the process. In my mind, you are now keeping the dog alive for you-not for the dog's quality of life. Kathy has been through this a number of times and knows what works for her. Not everyone would agree with what I am saying. But having been through a number of sick dogs, I would never, ever impose my 'feelings' on a dogs quality of life. I certainly don't think I could do the longterm fanconi protocol. But, that would be my choice and my lifestyle. I just think there comes a point when a dog knows it's time to stop and wants to be let go. Again, this is my opinion and I think everyone has their own threshold of tolerance.

[Tayda_Lenny]

This is so hard - it seems like most of the time when someone on the Yahoo Fanconi list posts a message of a Fanconi B crossing the rainbow bridge - it is something drastic that has happened - uncontrollable seizures, cancer, things like that…. none of that is happening to Tayda. I feel like she is just progressing with regular 'ol Fanconi. She has a few elevated kidney numbers so we have her on the hybrid protocol, but there is nothing MAJOR going on with her. But, regardless of what her bloodwork numbers are, her disease is progressing. And she's getting older. She will be 10 in a couple weeks and maybe some of what is going on is just apart of being an aging basenji. For the past 4 years, I have tracked and charted and calculated the protein levels in her food, made sure her supplementation was spot on, and every night - refused to go to bed unless she ate ALL of her food with pills mixed in, even if it meant re-making her food at 11pm with a new batch of pills in a yummier medium - like warm rice, pasta or something else besides the kibble. Even now with the baby, she gets pilled at almost exactly the same times every day, and she gets all of the rest of her vitamins I'd say 95% of the time. Sadly, I don't always have the time or the energy to spend hours chasing her around with a food bowl of vitamins, and I feel SO guilty about that remaining 5% of the time when I decide "it's ok, she got most of them." At what point do you say "ok, this poor dog has been through enough." And what if her bloodwork comes back and she's deficient in a vitamin or two that we could increase to put her back on track? If she's been through enough already, is it worth getting those extra few vitamins in her? Will it make her happier? Will she become the dog she was 5 years ago before she was diagnosed with Fanconi? Of course not. But, even pre-Fanconi - she was always a picky eater, she was always on the skinny side, she was always the dog that wanted to be close by, but not on your lap.

I don't know. I miss seeing her curly Q tail, she has it down a lot of the time these days. Why? I don't know. I don't know if she is in pain, I wish she could tell me. She'll turn her nose up at kibble, but if I make her pasta she'll come prancing in and run through her repertoire of tricks in advance to my even giving her the commands as if to say "That's everything I know, now DROP THE PASTA!" Is that how a dog behaves if she has checked out? Doesn't seem like it, but she can't live on pasta can she? Sigh....

[lvoss]

My old man was diagnosed with squamous cell carcinoma in September. The primary tumor is on his soft palette and he has a metastasis on his neck. Some days he does not curl his tail much and when he does it is a loose curl, he just doesn't have the muscle tone to curl it any tighter any more. We were given 2 options for treating him, the first would have required him to go in weekly for radiation treatments that might have bought him 3-6 months. He would have had to spend 4-6 hours at the vet and undergone anesthesia at each appointment. He hates vet visits. The second option was treat with piroxicam, an NSAID that has shown some activity against this type of cancer. We have opted for giving him the piroxicam and doing our best to make him comfortable. He still likes to eat but stretching his head all the way to the floor to eat out of a bowl is no longer comfortable so we bought him an elevated feeder. He is losing muscle tone so getting in the bed is hard so we got him his own ottoman to use as a stepping stool or his own bed, whichever he chooses. Right now, though we have good days and bad days, the good days are more often. He still seeks out the best sunny spots to lay, begs for tasty morsels, and comes down stairs eagerly for his breakfast but he moves slower and it seems each day he ages more than I thought possible. I know he will let us know when it is time but it is hard especially on the bad days, when the cold makes his old bones stiff and he doesn't move around so well.

Let Tayda tell you what she wants. Do the best you can and cherish the time you have. It doesn't sound like she has checked out but she may not be in it for the long fight anymore either.

[lvoss]

My old man was diagnosed with squamous cell carcinoma in September. The primary tumor is on his soft palette and he has a metastasis on his neck. Some days he does not curl his tail much and when he does it is a loose curl, he just doesn't have the muscle tone to curl it any tighter any more. We were given 2 options for treating him, the first would have required him to go in weekly for radiation treatments that might have bought him 3-6 months. He would have had to spend 4-6 hours at the vet and undergone anesthesia at each appointment. He hates vet visits. The second option was treat with piroxicam, an NSAID that has shown some activity against this type of cancer. We have opted for giving him the piroxicam and doing our best to make him comfortable. He still likes to eat but stretching his head all the way to the floor to eat out of a bowl is no longer comfortable so we bought him an elevated feeder. He is losing muscle tone so getting in the bed is hard so we got him his own ottoman to use as a stepping stool or his own bed, whichever he chooses. Right now, though we have good days and bad days, the good days are more often. He still seeks out the best sunny spots to lay, begs for tasty morsels, and comes down stairs eagerly for his breakfast but he moves slower and it seems each day he ages more than I thought possible. I know he will let us know when it is time but it is hard especially on the bad days, when the cold makes his old bones stiff and he doesn't move around so well.

Let Tayda tell you what she wants. Do the best you can and cherish the time you have. It doesn't sound like she has checked out but she may not be in it for the long fight anymore either.

[DebraDownSouth]

Is 10 young? Yes. Are there plenty of Fanconi dogs living much older and in good shape? Yes. But I do wonder if other things are also going on with her, medically. And it does not sound like AT ALL that you have missed enough pilling to be a reason for the disease progressing faster. Sometimes no matter what you do, it just does.

Can she live on pasta? Yeah, if you ground chicken with it so she's getting protein.

I am sorry the Wimauma dogs have such high rate of Fanconi, but I hope that the research Pam is undertaking to see if supplementing low levels from Dx instead of blood gas indications may help stave off symptoms ever beginning. And I hope that we get such high rates of testing and responsible breeding that Fanconi becomes totally rare ever. But for now, people like you end up suffering, I believe, more even than the dogs you love because of it.

I am going to be flamed, but I don't much care.

I don't know if she would be her old self if you got her routine 100 percent. I don't know if things would be much easier if you got her on cyproheptadine or another appetite enhancing drug so she was HUNGRY and would eat easier, including pilling.

I do know that I believe you have the absolute right to say enough and let her go, even if the above were true. You sound so sad and exhausted. You have given her your all for so long and if you have reached a point where you just can't keep doing it, realize inside that you gave her a better life than 99.99999 percent of companion animals on EARTH get for even a year, much less 10. If your gut says time, it is time. I wish I could send you the strength to not second-guess or be so sad, but all I can do is say thank you for being the kind of owner I wish all dogs could have.

[Terry]

Michelle, I know how hard it is. You never stop wondering if you did enough, if you had just tried a little harder. But in your heart, you will know when you and Tayda have given everything you have.

The Fanconi test is one of the best things that ever happened for Basenjis. Yes, it may have some issues, but compared to not knowing anything, it's magnificent. We had to make breeding decisions based on, "Well, no one's ever said any of this dog's close relatives have had Fanconi," and "All the dogs are strip tested monthly."

All you can do is love her for as long as you have her.

Terry

[tanza]

Michelle, from those of us that have lost our Basenjis over the years, it is never easy. As Terry said, because we are human, we always will second guess ourselves, did we do enough? Did we miss something early on? On and On… but in the end, we did the best we could and in the end we love too much.
Terry is right, the DNA test for Fanconi is the best thing that happened for our breed, it is perfect, NO... is any test perfect, NO! But is it certainly better then what we had before....

Debra - I didn't know that the Wimauma dogs are showing a high rate of Fanconi?

[EskiLovr]

Michelle,

I don't know if a dog can live on pasta, but there IS a higher protein pasta available. http://us.barilla.com/aggregator/prodotto_barilla/1301 I buy this and no one in my family knows it is any different! And we've got some picky eaters. It might be helpful to try it. It has 5 g of protein per ounce, so it isn't as good a source as actual meat, but it is something. If you could mix in egg or milk or yogurt, or even beans, those are other options.

My heart just breaks for you both, it is so hard to know what is going on in there. But if she still likes pasta, then pasta she should have, imo!

[DebraDownSouth]

Pam is having issues posting so asked me to post for her:
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[dcmclcm4]

Instead of giving Potassium pills, I used a Potassium powder-Potassium Citrate Granules and liquid Potassium to put in the food. Zippy had a bad gastro reaction to the prescription Potassium pills so I gave a combination of the powder and liquid. I gave Missy a combination of all three as I did not want to give that many Potassium pills to her. Neither the powder nor the liquid are prescription. The powder is Kala Health Gold Vet Potassium Citrate Granules and the liquid is TwinLab Liqui-K. The powder I would order online and the liquid I would buy at a local health food store but it could also be ordered online. I have also used powder Cranberry supplement.

It definitely could be something else in addition to Fanconi, Zippy developed a mass/tumor in the facial/nasal region after 10 years old and Missy developed Atypical Cushings and later a liver mass/tumor after 10 years of age. Missy was on lots of pills and supplements for her illnesses. Both had their blood levels under control though right up until death especially the pH level.

Jennifer

[Tayda_Lenny]

Just wanted to update everyone on Tayda. She had her bloodwork done last week and it seems her HCO3 and Potassiums are a touch on the high side, so we are DECREASING her supplementation. That's a first. She has been the model Fanconi patient for the 5 years since she was diagnosed, all of her numbers were always spot on. Her BUN and Creatinine are still elevated (but still in the normal range) so I'm trying to decrease her protein level in her food even more. She's already on a prescription renal diet, so it's going to be tough. She's very skinny - only 12 lbs now.

Overall, her bloodwork and urinanalysis don't show anything alarming. It's easy peasy to give her LESS pills, obviously. Dr. Gonto seems pretty sure that she is experiencing some muscle cramping and that could be why her tail is down and she just seems less mobile than before. We are adding some more amino fuel to her supplementation so hopefully that helps.

It's just hard. She pees in the house pretty regularly now (and I'm sure it's not UTI related). And even when she goes outside, I have to carry her out. Maybe it's because it's cold now here in RI? Lenny won't go outside either.

I don't know. None of these things seems like reason enough to consider her quality of life compromised….. mostly it's compromising MY quality of life - having to clean up pee so often(sometimes up to 3 times an evening) but I just don't know what to do about it. I feel like i've tried everything.

[eeeefarm]

@Tayda_Lenny:

It's just hard. She pees in the house pretty regularly now (and I'm sure it's not UTI related). And even when she goes outside, I have to carry her out. Maybe it's because it's cold now here in RI?

Since her weight is down I have no doubt she feels the cold more than ever. Time to bite the bullet and set her up with a "pee" spot inside, and try to insist she use it, and not bother about taking her out? Quality of life is hard to assess, but for me if the animal is reluctant to eat that is a big red flag.

[Tayda_Lenny]

Oh, but she does have a designated spot to pee inside - she has for about 3 years! She used to be free in the kitchen with a litterbox at one end of the room and she would pee in it reliably. Then she stopped, and all attempts to retrain her have been unsuccessful. Now she is in a large crate with a pee pad at one and and her bed at the other while we are gone during the day. She will pee on the pee pad, but unfortunately, she will often pee in her bed as well. And when we're home, she will not pee on the pee pad in the crate - she will just pee wherever.

Have you done something similar to this before? How do you insist she use a particular spot? Perhaps I am overlooking something… ?

@eeeefarm:

Since her weight is down I have no doubt she feels the cold more than ever. Time to bite the bullet and set her up with a "pee" spot inside, and try to insist she use it, and not bother about taking her out? Quality of life is hard to assess, but for me if the animal is reluctant to eat that is a big red flag.

[eeeefarm]

@Tayda_Lenny:

Have you done something similar to this before? How do you insist she use a particular spot? Perhaps I am overlooking something… ?

I have been fortunate. Very seldom a problem with any of mine, only the occasional slip when they were very old and sick. If she used to use her spot inside and no longer does so, I would wonder about canine dementia, or given Basenji predilection to act in a cat like manner, perhaps trying to get your attention because she is not happy. Or just because she no longer cares. My bitches were always horrified if they had an "accident". The only two incidents I had with healthy girls were both attributable to spite (and I don't care who disagrees, it was just so d*mned obvious!) How is her attitude generally, and do you notice any other areas where she is acting out of character for her?

I sure understand your frustration. When my one old girl was nearing the end just short of 16 years, she did have some issues. Most often at night. Not fun cleaning up a mess in the morning, but really, the only thing you can do is contain the dog to an area where it doesn't matter all that much…..and personally I wouldn't crate unless she is happy to spend time there. I'd go for comfort, and to hell with the floor and furniture in "her" space.

[Tayda_Lenny]

Well, she has always been the basenji that likes to be off on her own. Never much of a lap dog - liked to be near, but only as close as she wanted to be. And, she's still doing that. Does a lot of laying around. She and Lenny will still play and fight occassionally, and even though she hates going outside, and I have to carry her out there to pee - she will still give chase if she sees a squirrel or bird. Not as often, but she does. Although I wonder if she runs because she sees a squirrel or bird, or if she just does what Lenny does and when he runs - so does she. Hard to say.

As nice as that sounds, giving her her own space to pee as she wishes just wouldn't work here. We have a crawling - soon to be walking - baby and for sanitary reasons, as well as we plain don't want pee in the house… that wouldn't work.

[eeeefarm]

Sounds like you are between a rock and a hard place! Not an easy situation to deal with. I guess you do the best you can under the circumstances. Sorry I can't be more help. (I don't suppose there is a heated garage or similar space where the baby wouldn't be that would work for her?) Is she reasonably content in her crate?

[Tayda_Lenny]

Sigh…. no, she doesn't really like her crate. Probably cause she knows she will have to pee and won't be able to get out. Things were just peachy perfect when she was loose in the house and peed in the litterbox. Wish I could reason with her!!!!!

[eeeefarm]

Would an x pen or similar work for her, or do you have a room she could use where it wouldn't matter so much? I know you have probably thought of all these possibilities. In my case, my girls had the run of the kitchen and laundry room, and I didn't really care too much. But I was fortunate and didn't have issues very often.

[Tayda_Lenny]

We did the x-pen for a long time, had a piece of linoleum underneath so her pee wouldn't ruin the wood floors. She wasn't really more comfortable in there either - so we just started keeping her in the crate - so that it would all be more contained. I think the winters are more difficult because they don't want to go outside. During the summer - they are happy to be outside most of the day and bask in the sun…..