Large litters vs small litters. Which is best for puppies development, temperament,

[TwinDogsDifferentMothers]

Yes we have.

Here is an example of one site where we found a similar type of discussion. Of course there are varying opinion's just like in this forum.

http://www.rottweiler.net/forums/breeding/78083-litter-size-influence-individual-pup.html

[TwinDogsDifferentMothers]

@tanza:

I do think there is a difference between breeds, especially ones that are generally considered pack breeds, that is to say ones that work as a pack. Beagles would also fit that situation. On the other hand, sled dogs to not eat together, but work as a team.

In one of the forum discussion's that we came across, there is mention where one breeder crates and feeds their pups individually from 7 weeks.

[lvoss]

Breeders all have different ways that they raise their litters, it doesn't mean they are doing those things to prevent something like resource guarding or that it is an effective method of doing so. Also, the breeder may not even know how many puppies have developed resource guarding tendencies. Not all owners are willing to share with the breeder, especially when they are having challenges. I know that seems counter-intuitive since the breeder should be resource for helping when you encounter a challenge but it is the pattern seen by breeders over and over again.

[TwinDogsDifferentMothers]

@lvoss:

Breeders all have different ways that they raise their litters, it doesn't mean they are doing those things to prevent something like resource guarding or that it is an effective method of doing so. Also, the breeder may not even know how many puppies have developed resource guarding tendencies. Not all owners are willing to share with the breeder, especially when they are having challenges. I know that seems counter-intuitive since the breeder should be resource for helping when you encounter a challenge but it is the pattern seen by breeders over and over again.

We are sure this is very true. We bet there are many owners that either do not recognize or who may be embarrassed to approach their breeder for help. We also believe that many owners will wait until it gets to be a bigger problem and then blame the dog or breeder. We also agree that the owner has to take steps to deal with the issues a dog might have.

We also believe that factors like the factors mentioned( One of them being resource guarding) whether its food, a toy, or something else, does impact the development, temperament, and socialization of a dog. The Dominant dog in the litter, does not experience the same treatment from the other in the pack that the runt does. One would think that the larger the litter the more pack members to compete with.

The fact that the Dominant dog or others in the pack may not have to fight for a space at the bowl or for a toy. There are others in the pack that will give them up willingly. So wouldn't stand to reason that the Dominant dog might be socialized differently? Have a different temperament, and socialize differently? If there is never competition for food or other resource what reason does a Dominant Dog in the pack have to be aggressive.

[Chealsie508]

Dogs, much like children do not always have to have a reason behind the things they do. Just because a dog is confident enough to get resources doesn't mean for whatever reason, it wants to share.. I truly don't believe one can find answers to everything, some things are just "what they are"

[lvoss]

The definition of dominance is that it is established through force or aggression, so if you have a truly "dominant" puppy it got that standing through fighting for priority access to the resources. http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/dominance_in_dogs_is_not_a_personality_trait

Breeders should be watching each individual puppy for various behaviors that may be a tip off that some special care needs to be taken in their socialization in certain situations. This is not unique to resource guarding.

Resource guarding isn't about the availability of the resource, see Myth 3, http://4pawsu.com/Donaldson.pdf

[TwinDogsDifferentMothers]

Definitions are subjective and it all depends who is defining them. There is Dominance and then there is Domineering. They are two different things.

Just because a dog exhibits Domineering behavior does not mean that dog is the Dominant in the pack.

Control by force or aggression is not dominance, its actually is control by fear. Interestingly enough, we as humans are supposed to be the Pack leader with our dogs. In other words we are the Dominant one in the pack. Are you suggesting we obtain this with our dogs through force and aggression?

[lvoss]

You reply makes me think you didn't read the article, which is actually pretty detailed in explaining dominance in animals and the misconceptions surrounding the term.

[TwinDogsDifferentMothers]

@lvoss:

Breeders all have different ways that they raise their litters, it doesn't mean they are doing those things to prevent something like resource guarding or that it is an effective method of doing so. Also, the breeder may not even know how many puppies have developed resource guarding tendencies. Not all owners are willing to share with the breeder, especially when they are having challenges. I know that seems counter-intuitive since the breeder should be resource for helping when you encounter a challenge but it is the pattern seen by breeders over and over again.

And this response of yours makes us think you did not bother to follow the link and read the posts other forum that we referenced. It was pretty clear from what was posted in that thread exactly why the people were separating the puppies.

[TwinDogsDifferentMothers]

@lvoss:

You reply makes me think you didn't read the article, which is actually pretty detailed in explaining dominance in animals and the misconceptions surrounding the term.

Well you are entitled to make any assumption you wish. We don't dispute the article has a view and opinion of what dominance in animals is or can be. We also agree there are misconceptions surrounding the term Dominant.

In fact, we accept there will always be different views and ideas in regard to any definition. There are many experts that exist, and not all of them agree or accept one definition or one person's definition as absolute. Furthermore, they do not all agree on one methodology when dealing with behaviors or the modification of them.

Please pay attention to this quote from the link to the article you posted:

"The examples go on and on and the cause of the behaviors need to be evaluated on a case by case basis. Most likely, if you stick to the scientific definition for dominance and then look more closely at the dog's behavior, body language, and the reaction of the animals around him, you'll find dog behavior to be much more nuanced and interesting."

And this quote from your second link to the article you posted:

"Dog training and behavior modification
are fields full of camps with
different biases."

[Patty]

In my opinion, resource guarding can occur in any litter from a singleton to 8 or 9 in a litter. I'm not sure why an individual puppy becomes aggressive over food within the litter. It seems to develop later once the puppy has left the nest. Where a puppy becomes 'dominant' about food in my experience the others just accept their place. It seems strange to me to attempt to give the pups separate bowls unless they are physically separated from their siblings. I would only take this action if absolutely necessary.

Resource guarding is fairly simple to deal with - I have cured this with the 'nothing in life is free principle'.

I'm not sure why this subject seems to have degenerated into bad feelings - it's interesting otherwise.

[TwinDogsDifferentMothers]

@Patty:

In my opinion, resource guarding can occur in any litter from a singleton to 8 or 9 in a litter. I'm not sure why an individual puppy becomes aggressive over food within the litter. It seems to develop later once the puppy has left the nest. Where a puppy becomes 'dominant' about food in my experience the others just accept their place. It seems strange to me to attempt to give the pups separate bowls unless they are physically separated from their siblings. I would only take this action if absolutely necessary.

Resource guarding is fairly simple to deal with - I have cured this with the 'nothing in life is free principle'.

I'm not sure why this subject seems to have degenerated into bad feelings - it's interesting otherwise.

We agree that that this topic is interesting and needs to be explored. That is why we posted it.

What we do know and accept in the world of animal behavior is that we are constantly learning. We also understand that if one correct formula existed, then all litters would be perfect. There would be no developmental issues, no temperament issues, and no socialization issues. All the dogs in a litter would receive all the food and nurturing they needed. There would be no competition for food, and weaker puppies would not be bullied. There would be no problems when dogs left their litters to join their new homes.

Perfect litters would be a great and wonderful thing, but at the current time it just is not the case.

Maybe we can help you understand why some breeders would choose to separate puppies. In large litters, some breeders choose to separate puppies into smaller groups in an attempt to insure they can get nursed by their mother.

In large litters, some breeders choose to separate puppies as soon as they are weaned and starting to eat kibble or whatever diet they are started on. They feed them in crates and in separate bowls instead of one or two large communal bowls, in an attempt to insure each puppy will get there fair share of food.

Did you mean food aggressive when you used the word Dominant?

While we agree the "nothing in life in free principle" is a powerful tool, can you say without a doubt that it works in all cases? If so then why do other methodologies exist?

[lvoss]

Patty, my experience is in line with yours. Resource guarding occurs in puppies from all sizes of litters and often doesn't begin to manifest until after the puppies have left for their new homes. But that also goes along with my experience that my dogs will not exhibit certain behaviors around me and their "pack" that they will around other people or dogs.

[nomrbddgs]

My personal belief is that resource guarding starts with fear. And resource guarding is not limited to food.

I further believe that puppies, having individual personalities, will exhibit behaviour that reflects their surroundings. A confident puppy has no use for resource guarding which is why socialization to all aspects of life is important. I have taken mine to home depot, school yards, the downtown tourist area of Niagara Falls (talk about a lot of people) and introduced them to clattering pans, vacuums, saws, drills, machinery, wheelchairs, etc. I believe it all helps with their mental development to be more secure in strange surroundings. My two youngest, that I bred, are used to people and dogs. Doesn't mean they like them, just means that they are not particularily nasty to others. However, I do believe that a bonded pair of dogs will show more aggression to other dogs trying to infiltrate their union. (being neutered may also affect this scenario as well)

That is why I tell people to socialize everywhere they possibly can. When the puppies leave here, I have no control over how people socialize their pups. The one litter I had four males, one is not good with people, dogs, strange situations, etc. The people that took them had health issues and could not socialize him properly. The other one started out reserved, but with lots of socialization and hard work on the owners part, became a well adjusted dog that is good with situations and people, dogs. The other one started getting a little to big for his britches (he was always the first one to get in trouble and a tri to boot. He had a show contract on him, but I believe a good home is so much more important than a breeding/showing contract), so, with my permission, they neutered him, socialized the heck out of him and he's now become a well adjusted dog as well. The one I kept back has always been good with people and other dogs (if Rose, his friend, is not around) He became quite bonded with Rose to the point that he is now a jerk if he can't see her. But, he is never, ever aggressive with people. I also don't put up with a lot of crap from them (just like children they need limitations) so if something becomes an issue, I'm on it right away. I don't have time to waste so I am particularily firm on certain things. Growl at me? Off the furniture and away from me until you realize that is not nice. Don't want me to touch you there? I touch all the more. So there are four different dogs, all with different personalities, with three good outcomes. The fourth could have gone either way, but due to health issues, we can't say that he couldn't have been good. (and they know and acknowledge that this is their fault).

However, with that one that was placed with the people with the health issues, a girl was also placed from a different litter and she remains very, very sweet to everything. With the same limited socialization.

That's why I say every litter, every dog, is different and it depends on how much you put into the dog to make him well adjusted. MO only.

[TwinDogsDifferentMothers]

We want to thank you for a great, honest, and very informative answer. We very much agree that we feel resource guarding starts with fear.

Like you, we pay attention and if we notice a problem we deal with it right away. The firmness and examples of boundaries you set for them are a great example of what we understand the pack leader is supposed to do. We also agree that dogs are very much like children who need limitations. If those limitations do not exist then how in the world will they learn to respect you or your authority as the alpha or dominant in their pack.

Like you, we expose our Basenji's to everything we can. We expose them to different noises, like lawn mowers, big train whistles and wheels, sirens, as well as different things, like busy streets, cars, bicycles, crowds, children, adults, dog parks, and more. We do this as owners to reinforce good socialization skills. We have even been told we have very well behaved dogs, but we know they are Basenjis's so we are not buying into that.

While we do not know about others, we spend a lot of time walking with our dogs. Even the new puppy who will be 5 months old as of May 12th, is very responsive to this. In a lot of ways we are very lucky. She is crate trained and goes in her crate with no problems. We were able to house break her very quickly. Certainly we have a long way to go but we see teaching and training her as part of bonding. As issues come up, and they will (LOL) we will deal with them, nip them in the bud before they escalate into bigger problems.

It must be very difficult for a breeder to be able to notice all behaviors of all dogs in a litter. We would think it would be even more difficult to notice sometimes with a larger litter.

As problems or issues with behaviors like resource guarding can develop at different times in a dogs life, we do believe they are a result of fear and is not limited to food. We think sometimes resource guarding behaviors just are easier to see and show themselves more clearly when a puppy is separated from its litter in a situation like a new home. In our view, if the source of the resources change, or the competition for those resources change, then we as owners will have a change to see how well the puppy adjusts to that change or what problems might exist.

[Zande]

Frankly, I don't think the size of the litter is of any importance. What matters is the attention given to socialising the pups. As they are born, I hold each pup against the pulse in my neck as a starter and from then on, every pup is picked up, cuddled and talked to by us and everyone who comes to the house ! As soon as their legs will take the weight (most of the time, although falling over is allowed too) the new babies come out of the whelping box / maternity ward (huge crate) and play among the aunts, uncles, Mom, Granny and any other biggies.

That is where one, two or six puppies learn life-skills. The radio is on all the time, I drop pans, trip over bones and swear and the pups become socialised and bomb-proof. Some grand-parents are super trainers and some aloof but Basenjis love puppies and the interaction of the age-groups is essential to character formation.

As we insist on giving the first shot and sending the pups to their new homes with a vaccination certificate and instructions for the booster in 4 weeks time, ours mostly leave at between 8 & 9 weeks.

The NEXT most important thing to do is to email me the registered names of the pups, birthday, Mom and Dad so they can be included in the on-line database !

If you have a pup, have bought a pup, or taken in a rescue, PLEASE go to the website and check its details are included (pedigrees.zandebasenjis.com) and if not - email me and send a photo for inclusion !

[Patty]

Perfect litters would be a great and wonderful thing, but at the current time it just is not the case.

Maybe we can help you understand why some breeders would choose to separate puppies. In large litters, some breeders choose to separate puppies into smaller groups in an attempt to insure they can get nursed by their mother.

In large litters, some breeders choose to separate puppies as soon as they are weaned and starting to eat kibble or whatever diet they are started on. They feed them in crates and in separate bowls instead of one or two large communal bowls, in an attempt to insure each puppy will get there fair share of food.

Did you mean food aggressive when you used the word Dominant?

While we agree the "nothing in life in free principle" is a powerful tool, can you say without a doubt that it works in all cases? If so then why do other methodologies exist?

[Patty]

<>
Sorry I posted your comments instead of my reply!!
In Basenjis in large litters I've observed in the past there has always been an Aunt or Grandmother to help with the feeding. I do appreciate that this doesn't always happen and further steps must be taken. With any litter I'm vigilant and try to ensure that any weaker or less pushy puppy doesn't get left out. My experience has always been in Basenjis I'm afraid so thank you for your explanation.
I am chary about the word 'dominant' but was just trying to express what I mean. Yes, I agree, other methodologies exist but I was saying that NLIF has always worked for me. Actually I find that sometimes many ways or treatments are dismissed because the participant hasn't persevered. If something doesn't immediately work they dismiss it out of hand.
I'm in agreement with both Ivoss and Zande (and yourself) about early socialization of litters.

[Zande]

In the early days - puppis are GREAT time-wasters, I often stay around the maternity ward and plug on pups who are being pushed out. But nature has a way of balancing itself so a pup who may be a slow starter seems to catch up before very long. We've often had Granny lactating to feed the babies. Mom never minds, is probably grateful for the help. And while we feed in cages, with separate bowls as they get older, this is just to accustom the pups to know that being in a crate can be a good place. They all start (mostly walking through) a couple of flat bowls in an X-pen with me close by to see fair play.

As far as dominant or aggressive are concerned - I'm bigger than they are and it's MY house. And if they have a bone or a toy and I want it, I get it. They give it up and there is no talking back to this Mom !

I am just back from a long (6 mile) walk with Basenji owning friends, through lambs, fruit orchards and blue-bell woods. The 16 week old puppy achieved at least twice that distance, running free and goading the two adults who were on flexi leads. The biggies accepted the puppy, tolerated being chased, jumped on and rolled in the mud. Fantastic, well adjusted (very well socialised) Basenjis.

A delight to be with

[Zande]

You can figure on puppies doubling their weight in the first 7 days