I know too many puppies and dogs injured or killed due to collars left on unattended. Not worth the risk.
Large litters vs small litters. Which is best for puppies development, temperament,
-
I guess I am at risk of repeating my some of my questions. Please be patient with me if you can.
So what is it that the breeder is doing that actually socializes the puppies beyond them being with their pack?
I am just trying to get an idea of what the breeder would actually be doing with the puppies to facilitate this.
I do agree that continuing socialization is very important and the responsibility of the final home that the puppy becomes part of.
I think I do need to go back and re-ask about your views in regard to large vs small litters and competition for food.
Since someone in the thread asked for clarification of what a small litter is and what a large litter is, for discussion purposes lets say a large litter consists of 8 puppies, and a small litter consists of 4 puppies.
After weening, do breeders typically feed each puppy separately in separate bowls, or are they all fed together in separate bowls at same time or are they fed together from a few larger bowls?
Since I/we do not know what the typical practice is for breeders we were wondering.
Lets say a few larger bowls are used after the puppies are weened and staring to eat regular puppy food. Wouldn't this type of feeding possibly cause food aggression? Wouldn't a larger litter produce a more food aggressive dog based on the competition for the food resource available? Even though there might be more of the resource, there is certainly more competition for it.
Now lets take each puppy and feed them individually. Will they still compete for food if fed separately? Are they as likely to develop a food resource aggressive behavior?
-
I know that all 4 of mine were fed from communal bowls while they were pups while being weened and after they were weened. Eventually they were transitioned into eating by themselves in their crates (can't remember what age that was). Again, none of mine are food aggressive (as adults or were food aggressive as pups) and they run the gamut of coming from litter sizes of 4 - 9 pups. So for my 2 that are from large litters - they don't compete for food if fed separately. Mine are all fed in their crates because I want to know how much they are eating - not because they have any sorts of issues around sharing food. Brando does have an issue about guarding his crate with the other dogs (not the humans) - but take the crate out of the equation and he shares toys, food, everything just fine. In fact, I used to feel bad for Brando when puppy Aaliyah came into the pack, because she would take all of his toys, and he would never stop her - he just let her take them - you would look over and she would have all the toys and the other 2 b-kidz would have none.
For socialization, my kids breeders have strangers in (men, women, hats, no hats, etc), are exposed to loud noises like vacuums, cars, etc. Then when I took mine home and they had their 2nd set of vaccines, I took them into the city weekly for puppy play group so they were exposed to different dogs, walked around cars, walked on busy city streets (so exposed to sirens, car horns, traffic, people, etc), walked into the buildings of dog shows…lots and lots of socialization. Now as adults, they view the vacuum as a toy to chase (tails wagging - sometimes even yodels), and they don't even acknowledge loud noises (cars, sirens, thunder).
-
As I said, puppy socialization is hard work. Many breeders start with Early Neurological Stimulation, http://breedingbetterdogs.com/pdfFiles/articles/early_neurological_stimulation_en.pdf
Once the puppies eyes are open and they are getting their feet under them, breeders will start enriching their environment. This means providing different surfaces, toys, noises, so they get used to variety. I have cat tunnels, wobble boards, a variety of toys that add to their environment for them to explore. Once their eyes are open, I have people over to my house so they get exposed to all sorts of different people including kids. I have a friend who also takes my puppies for a day so they are exposed to being in different households and see different breeds of dogs, this usually happens around 8-9 weeks old though L'Ox stayed with her at 5 weeks old when I had to attend a funeral and The Men In Black were there at 7 weeks while I attended my brother's wedding. We make sure they are around normal household activities like vacuuming, the dishwasher, the hose, the broom, etc. and also things like loud movies with lots of bass, party poppers, and other loud noises. We take careful note of how the puppies react to new experiences and work with them on any problem spots we find.
As for your litter size question, I think it has been answered. It makes no real difference if they are from a large litter or small litter, except singletons who do have some added challenges but even they can grow up to be apparently "normal". Most breeders do communal feeding when puppies are weaning, the competition often helps to encourage eating. They are often transitioned to feeding by themselves at 8 weeks or so though they may still have some meals communally fed and some individually fed.
Are you having a resource guarding issue with your puppy? Why are you so persistent in trying to make resource guarding an issue of litter size or raising?
-
TwinDogs…and btw, I see you've never done any sort of member intro, what are your basenjis names...always good to welcome someone new, and new b-pups to the forum...
-
After weening, do breeders typically feed each puppy separately in separate bowls, or are they all fed together in separate bowls at same time or are they fed together from a few larger bowls?
I see no point in putting multiple bowls of food down with puppies running loose together. All they do is to run from bowl to bowl because, as any good Basenji knows, "whatever your sibling is eating is much better than what you have yourself". This holds true whether you have a litter of 2 puppies or 6+. My litters are fed together from a single, large bowl until I start crate-training them. From that point on I feed each pup it's meals alone in it's crate. All of my dogs, of all ages, are fed individually in their own crates.
Based on your questions, I'm curious if you are the same person who commented on my youtube video http://youtu.be/l0jKZysUNDc a while back where my pups are shown eating together?
-
I do not feed in separate bowls either before or after weaning. They are fed in the pack out of one dish. It is possible that if a litter is kept together older then 14 weeks and depending on the number of pups, I can see possible problems if one is typically getting pushed out of the bowl and not getting its share… or the fact that a pup could be so used to competing for its food that once placed they could be a bit of a bully with another dog in the home.
However, if that is the case, they are most likely pretty food motivated and I would make sure that they are fed separate, in crates.
-
Based on your questions, I'm curious if you are the same person who commented on my youtube video a while back where my pups are shown eating together?
No we have never seen a youtube video where basenji pups are eating together. We also never looked for any videos on this subject. This is something we had not considered doing but it might be a good idea and help give us insight.
-
Are you having a resource guarding issue with your puppy? Why are you so persistent in trying to make resource guarding an issue of litter size or raising?
I think these are fair questions. Yes we are concerned that our new puppy might be showing signs of resource guarding. So we are researching it and asking questions. I do no think we are making a issue of litter size as much as we are just not willing to dismiss it as a possibility.
I do not know if I would use the term persistent in your second question, but in our minds, it does make logical sense that liter size can be a factor when it comes to competition for food or any other resource. Again, we are researching and asking questions.
In order to obtain a clear picture, we certainly need to understand what is behind certain behaviors. So we are exploring possible triggers. To us this similar to a nature versus nurture type of inquiry.
Just as anyone would study the human, there are both psychological, and sociological reasons for the behavior we are observing.
Knowing the factors that exist, and how the surroundings that a puppy experiences at a young age affect them, all contribute to information that might and can be important and useful.
So far we feel the discussion has been very interesting.
-
I suppose I approach researching a topic a bit different. Rather than focusing on one aspect that may have no effect on the issue, I would be looking into the issue itself and what is known about its causes and how to manage it. So rather than asking about large litter sizes and whether it causes resource guarding isn't a better question, What causes resource guarding and how can I help head off some of the tendencies I am seeing before they become a major issue?
As for my use of the word persistent, I feel you are being persistent because several people have stated that they have seen no correlation between litter size and resource guarding and yet you have repeated the question.
-
I suppose I approach researching a topic a bit different. Rather than focusing on one aspect that may have no effect on the issue, I would be looking into the issue itself and what is known about its causes and how to manage it. So rather than asking about large litter sizes and whether it causes resource guarding isn't a better question, What causes resource guarding and how can I help head off some of the tendencies I am seeing before they become a major issue?
As for my use of the word persistent, I feel you are being persistent because several people have stated that they have seen no correlation between litter size and resource guarding and yet you have repeated the question.
Wouldn't we be better off in the future understand what causes the issue instead of just learning to treat the symptom? There may be a time we choose to add another puppy to our home, so like health testing to attempt to insure good health, we view understanding the cause of a possible issue important to know and understand.
Yes I agree there are a few people in the thread that have said that litter size is irrelevant. Instead of playing semantics we will accept the word persistent. Let just say we choose just not to accept the conclusion of a few people when other resources may indicate something different.
-
What resources have you found that indicate something different?
-
What resources have you found that indicate something different?
One of our sources happens to be an Animal Nutritionist with a Master's degree that we personally know.
We also know the internet is full of resources and we are currently exploring them. The Basenji forum is just one internet source that we happened to start with.
While I would not say this link, is anything conclusive, there are many valid points in it.
http://www.helium.com/items/2085944-causes-of-food-aggression-in-dogs
-
Again, you didn't start a thread called, What Causes Resource Guarding? You came to this discussion having already decided what answer you want to hear. You want people to say that litter size causes it and you don't seem to like the answer that it is largely genetic.
If you want to learn more about Resource Guarding then I suggest the book Mine! by Jean Donaldson.
-
Be very careful putting stock into one person. That person always has biases. And, just because someone has this degree and that degree, doesn't mean they have the experience and knowledge that has dealt with many different forms of the situation you are looking for. Resource guarding has many different factors-not always the same. You cannot pinpoint one specific cause, or event for this.
Resource guarding is not a 'symtom'. It is an effect. Usually to stimuli over time that has created the effect. Food for thought.
-
One of our sources happens to be an Animal Nutritionist with a Master's degree that we personally know.
My niece is a veterinarian, so what?
I would think breeders would be the best source of information on this topic. I just came back from having coffee with a breeder (not Basenjis) who is a friend of mine, and posed the question to her. She said she thought it might be possible if a breeder with a large litter was negligent, otherwise no. She sees to it that her pups have all the access to food that they need. With a particularly large litter…...she has had them in the double digits.......she separates the pups into two groups, with only one group at a time having access to the bitch. No difficulties then for everyone to find a spot to nurse, but she says generally it isn't an issue anyway. When she starts them on solid food, again she makes sure there is lots for everyone.
She did mention that in her breed the adults are known to be resource guarders in respect to not sharing food with other dogs. This seems to be irrespective of litter size, socialization, or anything else.
-
Be very careful putting stock into one person. That person always has biases. And, just because someone has this degree and that degree, doesn't mean they have the experience and knowledge that has dealt with many different forms of the situation you are looking for. Resource guarding has many different factors-not always the same. You cannot pinpoint one specific cause, or event for this.
Resource guarding is not a 'symtom'. It is an effect. Usually to stimuli over time that has created the effect. Food for thought.
We do agree that a person always has biases. It even surfaces, with well know experts and authors.
We are not putting stock in one person specifically, but I will say that person we mentioned has additional qualifications and experience including breeding and deals with dogs on a daily basis. Those things are separate from the degree in animal nutrition.
While we do accept and respect his education, experience, hands-on, and personal knowledge, we also realize this is just one person with one opinion.
The link that was posted in addition references a person that also has experience that goes beyond their writings which includes being very involved in the dog world..
As we continue to search the net for other resources, there are posts on other websites of different breeds from people who are breeding where litter size and resource guarding is mentioned.
We are not going to debate whether resource guarding is a symptom, or an effect. In our view that is semantics.
We are also not going to get side tracked debating the title of our post. Instead we choose to stay on topic. Our interest has to do with whether litter size affects development, temperament, and socialization. If resource guarding is included in this topic so be it. If food aggression is part of this topic so be it. If asking what a breeder does to socialize a dog is included so be it. If you want to add litter nutrition we can do that too.
Is there something wrong with asking these questions? Is there some expectation that someone always has to agree with the answers that are given?
-
eeeefarm
We do not disagree with what you have stated above.
What is interesting is that your post points out something different than the others have. Your mentioned your breeder friend takes this step with a large litter.
"She sees to it that her pups have all the access to food that they need. With a particularly large litter…...she has had them in the double digits.......she separates the pups into two groups, with only one group at a time having access to the bitch. No difficulties then for everyone to find a spot to nurse, but she says generally it isn't an issue anyway. When she starts them on solid food, again she makes sure there is lots for everyone."
This is something significant. We thank you for being interested enough to ask your friend.
-
Have you looked into other breeds? My understanding is that for working foxhounds all the adult dogs are fed together and there is no food/resource guarding. Foxhounds also have LARGE litters.
-
I do think there is a difference between breeds, especially ones that are generally considered pack breeds, that is to say ones that work as a pack. Beagles would also fit that situation. On the other hand, sled dogs to not eat together, but work as a team.
-
Yes we have.
Here is an example of one site where we found a similar type of discussion. Of course there are varying opinion's just like in this forum.
http://www.rottweiler.net/forums/breeding/78083-litter-size-influence-individual-pup.html
