Fran, are you sure she wasn't a Basenji in disguise!!!!!
Breeding for temperament back in the day
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I think the quality breeders has done a great job getting our breeds temperment to the good state it is now. I heard one person say, when I started going to dog shows many years ago, that judges often wouldn't touch the dogs on the table, because they would lose a finger.
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I just had a co-worker freak out on me when she found out I had a basenji. She shreiked "why on earth would you get one of those little terrors?"
At first I thought she was joking, but she wasn't. She met a basenji about 20 years ago when she was doing the census. She entered this guy's house and the basenji came out of nowhere. The guy told her "don't move. It's a Basenji and they only bite once in their lives and will NEVER let go. You'll be dead in seconds."…funny, Cricket play bites ALL the time! :rolleyes:
So regardless of the breeder, I hope the calibre of owners has also improved... -
When I spayed Sayblee, I got a lot of flack from her breeder and several others plus a few handlers. I spayed her because she was utterly over the top dog and animal aggressive. Yes, she had a lovely feminine head. Yes, she finished her championship pretty darn quick. Yes, her pedigree was filled with champions. I acknowledged to those folks who were dissing me that perhaps they were right, I was a noob who didn't comprehend the need in smaller population breeds to ignore some characteristics. But when you have a dog that really should have been in a one dog only family… likely to reproduce at least some like her, I made the choice that she should NEVER have puppies.
So while I thing GOOD breeders are pushing temperament, I still know many who are not, who feel the physical characteristics are the only REAL important issue. I also see quite a few at shows who are beyond snarky and whose breeders have admitted they have to keep nearly all their dogs separated. I like the breed's quirks, but am very glad to know most breeders don't consider predatory behaviors toward all other living creatures to be something to retain!
I do want to add though, that not all behavior problems are due to bad temperament. My young male, Hippo can be snarky at other dogs at shows. It is something we are working through..but it is MY fault because I didn't get him out and socialized enough with non-family dogs as a pup. He comes from lines with OUTSTANDING temperaments.
So, while Basenji temperaments ARE improving..it still takes some work for the owners to make sure their puppies get well socialized, particularly around other dogs. They will never be a push-button breed, and I think most of us like it that way (at least most days!)
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Hmmm… I wonder if the idiot Kipawa and I met yesterday had old school thinking about basenjis? Could explain why he was such a jerk.
Temperament was the most important quality we looked for when we got Kipawa. He's incredible. I can give him kisses when he is asleep, and no problem. Same with moving him when he is asleep. We have a little knick-name for him - it's "Happy", because he is always such a sweetie. I can lift him in my arms, with him on his back, and nuzzle his chest. I get nothing but a joyous attitude from him. Hugs to Therese and Kevin for bringing up their dogs like this.
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Fran, you will probably never figure that guy out. People behave so strangely about dog behavior….Dogs will be dogs, and people get all bent out of shape and angry about it, and take it personally.
I don't use off lead parks for that very reason...but I can understand the appeal of using them. I am glad everybody is okay after your bad encounter...
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I do want to add though, that not all behavior problems are due to bad temperament. My young male, Hippo can be snarky at other dogs at shows. It is something we are working through..but it is MY fault because I didn't get him out and socialized enough with non-family dogs as a pup. He comes from lines with OUTSTANDING temperaments.
So, while Basenji temperaments ARE improving..it still takes some work for the owners to make sure their puppies get well socialized, particularly around other dogs. They will never be a push-button breed, and I think most of us like it that way (at least most days!)
Exactly and Basenjis become "attached" to their dog packs and if you are not careful about introducing them to others and other breeds away from your own (their own) pack, it can lead to serious snarking in different situations. My girls have a pack with all the pups that came and played on play dates (and adults too) since they were 11wks old. However, they don't just off hand accept other dogs/basenjis that are not of their pack. It takes some adjustment and especially if on lead. Just the other week we were up in Or/Wa and stayed with Kevin and Therese (again thanks you two, it was fun) and the girls got to play with one of their older boys and two of the young pups… C-Me who has no problems was great... Franie, took a bit of posture and talking, but then they were off and running. So, it is not only important to socialize as puppies, but continued as adults. And while I do not expect them to love all other dogs or get along, that to me is acceptable also.
Like Andrea, I don't use off leash dog parks, too many uneducated dog owners... for my taste
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I think it's so interesting that so many of you agree that there HAS been a noticeable difference. So I glad I didn't just make this up! :p It's impressive to me that the overall temperament of a breed can change with conscientious breeding. The B's that I know tend to be fairly friendly (though still aloof with strangers), cuddly, etc. I'd be surprised to learn that there's a specific "nice" gene, but I'm convinced that the foundation of a good temperament is genetic.
I did wonder about training methods, too. I suspect some old school, heavy-handed training approaches can backfire with B's and make them lash out more, which would compel their owner to "punish" them more, and it turns into a vicious cycle. As training methods improve for all dogs, maybe some of these breed perceptions get worn down a bit, too.
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When we started showing basenjis in the mid 80's we used to show with our breeder and she would send potential puppy buyer over to play with Winston and Tasha as they were great with everyone dog and human. Temperament and health are the most importAnt thing. The dogs I see now nearly 30 years later seem much more relaxed and well socialized than their predecessors.
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Very interesting.. I have been wondering about this a lot… Now if we could just breed the chewing out of them...:p
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I've always been curious why the temperaments ever like that. From the various presentations on the expeditions to the Congo, I've heard several times that poor temperaments and aggressiveness towards other dogs or people would not have been tolerated as it would not have worked well with how the people lived with the dogs. Granted, that is a significantly different environment and the dogs had a lot a more space and freedom to get away from other dogs they didn't get along with. Plus, I generally hear that the imports brought over in recent years have good temperaments. Was there generally different breeding priorities early on after the initial importations that may have inadvertently led to it?
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We got our first basenji about 72, he was a year old when we got him, confined in a back yard his whole life. He was great with us and the female rescue we got a couple of years later, but he sent one small dog to the emergency vet. If he got out and saw another dog, he wasn't playing, he was serious. But he was the smartest and funniest basenji ever, he would play pranks on us! The reputation back then was "untrainable and aggressive". And indeed with the old jerk-and-snatch methods, they WERE untrainable; much better with modern positive reinforcement.
But I do agree, temperaments back then were much 'sharper' than most we see today, thanks to great breeders! -
I've always been curious why the temperaments ever like that. From the various presentations on the expeditions to the Congo, I've heard several times that poor temperaments and aggressiveness towards other dogs or people would not have been tolerated as it would not have worked well with how the people lived with the dogs. Granted, that is a significantly different environment and the dogs had a lot a more space and freedom to get away from other dogs they didn't get along with. Plus, I generally hear that the imports brought over in recent years have good temperaments. Was there generally different breeding priorities early on after the initial importations that may have inadvertently led to it?
I have wondered about that too. All the Africans that I have met have been very easygoing, especially with people. Some have been downright gregarious (Dr. Jo!) I have heard people speculate that possibly, selecting for dogs that were confident and 'showey' for the ring led to a sharper temperament; or maybe it has to do with how breeders raise and socialize puppies now, as opposed to the olden days of keeping dogs in large kennels….it does seem like a good question though...
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My experience with my half avongara litter is that they are all very friendly but are more environmentally sensitive than my domestics. What I mean by environmentally sensitive are things like when our across the street neighbor sets up her yard decorations for the seasons my domestics have never acted in any way to acknowledge that they notice. Sophie hackled up and boofed the first time she walked out and the scarecrow was out. Once she was taken over and allowed to investigate, it was no big deal but she needed everyone to know there something strange and new in the environment. I was doing some nosework in a parking garage and person popped up out of the stairwell and Sophie alarm barked. Again, no big deal after the new thing was acknowledged, she just alerts to environmental changes. For Sophie, it is not a big deal, we acknowledge the new thing and then move on but I can see how this sort of environmental sensitivity could lead issues if force based training was used and the alerting signals she gave were punished.
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When we showed years and years ago for the first time, over 28 years now, no one could stand with their B next to another B, you had to keep your distance from each other outside the ring and be very careful moving them into the ring if another was coming out, especially the boys. Only I ever showed my boy, I was too scared to let anyone else handle him. Then in later years when we returned to the ring with my son's Timi and my Cory, it was a different world. Bs and their handlers all together in one group, visiting, not having to keep both eyes on the dogs at all times with short tight leashes. I can attest that temperment has improved 100 fold in my opinion. Breeding for temperment has to be a big priority if they are to remain companions and family members.
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And thank goodness the temperaments have improved. Sunday I was rotating Gambit and my whippet out of and into crates ringside. I thought I had Gambits collar in my hand, and then looked down and the little imp had backed out of her martingale and all I had was the collar. I looked around and she was right behind me sitting next to Jaque's basenjis listening to her talk. I reached over, slipped her collar on her and walked off with her. I don't think anyone else realized she did not belong to Jaque.
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The guy told her "don't move. It's a Basenji and they only bite once in their lives and will NEVER let go. You'll be dead in seconds."
OMG that is hysterical. I mean, he must have seen her coming… dead from a 20 something pound dog, roflmao.
Hmmm… I wonder if the idiot Kipawa and I met yesterday had old school thinking about basenjis? Could explain why he was such a jerk.
I suspect he is simply a jerk and had no idea about the breed.
And while I do not expect them to love all other dogs or get along, that to me is acceptable also.
I don't expect them to love other dogs or want to make friends. I do expect them not to try to eat any other dog or go Cujo at the site of them.
I've always been curious why the temperaments ever like that. From the various presentations on the expeditions to the Congo, I've heard several times that poor temperaments and aggressiveness towards other dogs or people would not have been tolerated
Dogs there not confined in houses, crates, fences. They don't like another dog, they leave. There was a great hunting dog article years ago about the changes in society creating the changes needed to continue to have dogs as pets. When I think about some breeds that are human aggressive, those breeds work fine on farms in Africa, South America and other places where there really is no need for a stranger to be on your property and you actually NEED human aggressive guard dogs (and won't get sued into poverty if they bite someone). We expect different here.
It is one reason I get so bent out of shape over Pit Bull stereotyping. Pit bulls are animal aggressive, not human aggressive, when bred "right." I don't agree with the "keepers of the breed" who insist that maintaining the animal aggression is good, but I also know a good dozen dog breeds still under the radar here that are darned scary in human aggression.
Years ago Kimbertal Kennels had an instruction page up for Filas. It said, I swear, that if your dog was friendly to strangers you should tie it to a tree and have a stranger come up, pet it, give it a treat, then beat it. It advised that after 2 or 3 people you should have that problem fixed. Their BREED CLUB AD said "If you are looking for a friendly dog, find another breed." Sigh. and yet, they aren't even on my top 10 list.
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OMG…that is disgusting, and disturbing Debra
those poor dogs... -
A lot of people consider protection the main reason to have a dog. Every time someone comes up to me on the street the second thing they ask, right after asking if that's the dog from the movie The Mask ( did not know that was such a popular movie down here), is if he,s " bravo" which means angry, aggressive. Then when I say no, they say.. But in your house he is ,right ,..to strangers?, then when I tell them he doesn't even bark they really don't get it, they often ask why I have him…...
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Never having had our house broken into in the 70s or 80s, I could not attest to what any of our dogs would do.
But, my guess is they would run up to the guy iwth his hand in his pocket and wait for treats… "Lady" Lucky Lady of Woz and "Tuff" CH Khani's Tuff Stuff were loose all the time and would love up on anyone.
Here and there you would find dogs that wouldn't be so nice to strangers.In the Spring of 2003, my house was burglarized.
Neighbor behind me watched and had his Mom call the cops... he watched the guy toss dog biscuits in the wire crates and the dogs jumped up in the crate then went through the house gathering items to steal.
As he was going out the back door, he opened the crate and closed the door so the 2 Basenjis and 1 Whippet were running loose in the house.
So much for Basenjis as a guard dog! -
If anyone tries to steal my bed or the food bowl, they are in big trouble. Otherwise, not so much.
