Long talk with Dr. Gonto

[sinbaje]

@tanza:

Honestly.. this same information from Dr. Gonto was sent to the BCOA Health Committee, what they have decided to do with it… I can't say

Pat - you tendered you resignation to the Health and Research Committee (HRC) one week ago so YES you do, or should, know what the HRC has been working diligently on for several months, up to and including Dr. Gonto's information. How misleading to imply that the HRC is not doing anything. What a slap in the face, IMO to your fellow committee members who have been working so hard to get accurate information out to the public.

@tanza:

And obviously with the current Board for BCOA… I have no impact and the fact that I questioned was met by the co-chair of that committee with obvious negative results. I was member of the Heath Committee unitl recently when I questioned too much and was put on moderation for that group. I resigned the committee as many other long time BCOA members have done with committees they were one. Including the Bulletin for the last few years... among others.

It is not my opinion you were put on moderation because you asked too many questions. Lots of folks - on the committee and not on the committee but a part of the chat group - ask many, many questions. It is my opinion you were put on moderation because of your continued hostility, if not downright attack, of the chairs.

In truth - had I been running the show - which I am not - you would have been at the very least moderated, at the most fired from the committee days earlier for your threats to publicly undermine the HRC if they posted something you disagreed with - despite the majority of the committee having no issues with it.

Seeing as how Alex the forum owner is a friend of yours - I have no doubts you will have this edited and/or removed and/or have me kicked off if possible. It seems to be the MO of this forum - allowing certain 'chosen ones' to continue to disparage others but when called to task on their own personal responsibility to a problem - it is removed.

Therese and Debra - having immediate access to information has created a very impatient populous. Sadly doing business properly does not allow for instant gratification. Neither the HRC, the BCOA nor the BHE have the means to get immediate information out without risk of being seriously setback by folks intent on undermining the group as a whole as has been evidenced in the past 6-12 months.

Rest assured - the BCOA by way of its HRC is working hard on getting accurate and current information ready for the public. It is a combined effort of a rather large committee so it takes time to listen to and incorporate numerous opines.

Don't take my word for it; for those BCOA members - feel free to ask to join the group and see for yourself how hard folks have been working:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/bcoahealth/

Debra - if you want to re-join the BCOA - download an application, get one signature and send along to me for your second one and we can remedy your situation.

[tanza]

I take great exception to your post Linda…. and Yes, I do know what the committee has been working on and it has NOT been for months, it has been weeks... and IMO it is not good enough for what there has been put out to the general public, think when members see the results they too will ask questons. I was moderated because I questioned the co-chair more then once for putting words into my "mouth" that I did not say and not addressing the person directly that first asked the question. And believe me, I could not care less if is was you or anyone else as the Co-committee chair, my response would be the same. Others agreed with my questions, but even if they did not, doesn't matter, it was not deserving of the "non" response from the a committee co-chair.

And please Privately explain "threats".... LOL... and I say privately because I doubt that anyone here really cares

And by the way, Alex is not a friend of mine, I know his wife because she has a dog from Kathy Britton and Marilyn Leighton, not sure where you get your information, but feel free to ask him ... I have no control over who is here or what they post including myself.

Speaking of "friends" that would be for your friend the Co-Chair of the Health committee

[Therese Leimback]

Linda,
I'm confused by your post, you mentioned that Debra and I had access to information and are now looking for instant answers which is difficult, yet in the start of your post you stated the HC has been working on this for several months. What exactly is the HC working on that has taken months and still has not compiled information for the breeding and pet public?
Also at the risk of offending you, you might consider that correcting what you thought Pat F put out as "bad information" is one thing but attacking her publicly on a friendly open forum like this one made you look a bit like a "pot calling the kettle black". As someone who is not involved in this situation I just thought you might want to consider how it made you look to someone outside the situation.
Thanks for the link to the HC list, I'll join right away.
Therese Leimback
FoPaw's Basenjis
www.fopawsbasenjipuppies.com

[Batcavebasenjis]

@Therese:

I thought maybe if I contacted the OFFA I might get some response in regards to where to find some answers or even the best route to get questions answered by Dr Johnson.
Therese

Good luck with that! I emailed the OFA a few weeks ago about Ace and Ra's and I got nothing!
Jess

[DebraDownSouth]

Jess, I quit emailing OFA long ago. Call them! Have gotten wonderful results on the phone.

[sinbaje]

@tanza:

Yes, I do know what the committee has been working on… and IMO it is not good enough and other on the committee.

I disagree with your premise that it is not good enough and I imagine there are 10-13 other committee members who would agree with me. I think for what is needed in the here and now it is and it addresses the concerns that have been brewing in recent months.

If it is not as perfect as some folks think it should be (and really - what ever is??) it will be a reflection on the committee as a whole since every single member has had input into the making of it and has had ample opportunity to weigh in. And yes Pat - that would include you (sans 7 days ago when you took your ball and went home.)

@tanza:

I think when members see the results they too will ask questons.

I would hope like heck members WOULD be asking questions. Without questions - the HRC has no direction on where to go and /or what needs to be addressed for the future. I do not have the impression the HRC is considering what they are currently working on as a static piece but one that will evolve as more becomes known.

@tanza:

And please Privately explain "threats"…. LOL... and I say privately because I doubt that anyone here really cares.

Seems folks SHOULD care since it could affect many of us as current and/or future BCOA basenji lovers; as you say we should all be responsible to be engaged within the BCOA - the good the bad and the ugly <insert western="" music="" here="">.

While I can not directly quote what you wrote on the 25th as that would be a breach of the list - I can certainly paraphrase; you and one other committee member (out of I think 14 members) did not like how a certain passage was worded. You wrote to the group that if this passage went as written you would have no problem shouting to the BCOA roof tops via voice or written word your discontent with the very committee you are supposed to be working in tandem with.

Sorry - that is not team playing, that is undermining and manipulative. For me it almost borders on bullying. And folks wonder why it can take many weeks, if not months to put something together.

That said - some folks on the HRC did not agree with many things during the brainstorming sessions of the HRC but at no time did they threaten to stir trouble for the HRC outside of the group and in fact most showed tremendous respect for each other and consideration for the differing opinions. On more than one occasion folks asked the group to get back to that "zone" as it was refreshing to be a spectator on the sidelines, which I was/am.

I for one am proud of what the HRC have accomplished and while it may not be perfect to everyone - it is the cumulation of many, many hours of dedicated volunteers whose sole intention is to make the basenji world a better place.

BCOA folks are more than welcome to join the health chat group and read for themselves. Do note - that only committee members are allowed to vote on anything related to the HRC.

Am I 'friends' with the co-chairs? I would like to think so (I certainly respect their knowledge and contributions to the BCOA), as much as I am 'friends' with anyone in the breed. Just as I would have thought you and I were also 'friends' Pat until your private, and seemingly misdirected post to me venting after you got put on moderation, told me otherwise. I am sorry you feel that way about me.

@Therese:

Linda, I'm confused by your post, you mentioned that Debra and I had access to information and are now looking for instant answers which is difficult, yet in the start of your post you stated the HC has been working on this for several months.

Sorry if I have not been more clear. Firstly - I did not mean to imply you and Debra had access to anything since I do not know what you do or do not have access to.

Secondly - me, you, Debra, and everyone else in the world seem impatient for information in a world where information is at our virtual fingertips. However in the real world there are times when information can not be so readily available and as adults we need to exercise a certain amount of patience without implications that work is not being done or secrets are being kept. I was just reminding folks of that basic fact.

When you have a committee of 14 or so members in various parts of the world it can and does take awhile for things to come together as they should. And there is nothing negative to infer in that depsite what some would have you believe.

So sorry you read my reply to Pat as an attack. I was only replying to her disparagement of the BCOA, the HRC (esp. the chairs) and the BHE - who do not have a voice on these forums - when she and I both know the HRC has been hard at work for many, many weeks.

It is, IMO, unfair for Pat to continue to imply to this forum that the HRC, the BCOA and/or the BHE have been resting on their laurels doing naught.

In truth it would go against my nature to allow such implications to go un-addressed when I have information to the contrary. If that makes me a pot or kettle - then whstttttt</insert>

[tanza]

People might be able to join and make a comment, duly noted that they are ignored with some exceptions when others are "assigned" to tasks and are not even members of the committee, just observers.

And Linda, your attacks are directed at me personally as noted by Therese, my vent to you was because of an attack to me personally.

People will need to judge for themselves if the response from the Health Committee answers the questions. I think not.

And I am totally for the Linkage test if anyone is interested and think that it is the greatest tool we have in addition to breeders knowing the bloodlines they are breeding. It is certainly better then just only knowing the pedigrees, however there have been questions raised that need answers.

[Chealsie508]

I was very much not going to post in regards to this thread seeing as it is highly controversial but I am going to say this: and I must say that some may like it and some may hate that I am saying this but someone has to say it,

I am not a member of the BCOA and to be honest I do not really have the need to know specifics of why Pat is no longer a member and likewise I do not care to know if Sinbaje is friends and how close with the chair (which I am assuming is lingo for president?).
I learned a lot about Basenji's when doing research and found that the biggest commitment wasn't in owning one but in having to deal with the BS that people in this breed tend to get themselves in. Most of the people in this breed are people like myself- that love the breed and have moderate knowledge, however the select few ruin it for people like myself by getting crazy, gossiping about breeders, getting political about the BCOA etc…it has to stop! I enjoyed the knowledge this thread started with and it ended up like this: lord knows what I am going to do when I am getting my second because I do NOT want to deal with this craziness again, and many do not want to deal with me because I don't want to get into it. When it gets ugly it is never because of a Basenji, it is always about one person bashing another....jeez

Lastly, I will say this: everyone who gets nasty or crazy says it is because they love the breed, well let me tell you this:
I have chosen not to get involved in any BCOA activities or into lure coursing or agility or even go to shows for the sole reason that I DO NOT want to witness or be part of the garbage that comes out of some adults mouths. Now tell me how that helps the breed that MANY MANY people feel so discouraged that they do not get involved? Now thats a shame!

What this thread turned into is a prime example of the banter that scares people away

To Debra: thank you for this valuable information, Oakley and I appreciate it

[tanza]

While I respect your views, I disagree and challenge that all Basenji owners should be engaged with BCOA. This is the club of the people and only the people can make it their own, run with the leaders they want, trust and respect.

[Chealsie508]

I agree that everyone should be but it is not an easy world to navigate when you are new and have to deal with all the politics. There is no respect and trust with what I have seen.. I can not tell you how much gossip I hear, has been spread about me when I post here etc…it is disheartening because I wanted to be involved in the Basenji community but with what I see ( this as an example) it isn't a place I want to be in my spare time and I wouldn't subject Oakley to it either. To me, with what is happening, I am being a better Basenji owner than if I were involved.

[Chealsie508]

and let me add: this is not directed towards Sinbaje or Tanza- merely a rant about the politics that are getting out of control lately.

No one can disagree with me that things have been crazy with the gossip, member issues etc.

[tanza]

@Chealsie508:

I agree that everyone should be but it is not an easy world to navigate when you are new and have to deal with all the politics. There is no respect and trust with what I have seen.. I can not tell you how much gossip I hear, has been spread about me when I post here etc…it is disheartening because I wanted to be involved in the Basenji community but with what I see ( this as an example) it isn't a place I want to be in my spare time and I wouldn't subject Oakley to it either. To me, with what is happening, I am being a better Basenji owner than if I were involved.

I do not agree, all of us that are Basenji owners need to be involved… this is our breed and without members that question or are engaged we will not get to the place we all want to be...

BCOA should be for the members, not a select group of breeders... while they may have the knowledge, they are only a few and there are many other breeders that have different opinions. Not to say that any or all are wrong, but they deserve to be heard. If members are not engaged then a few will "take" over the club to what their agenda is........... think about it.....

[nobarkus]

@Chealsie508:

I agree that everyone should be but it is not an easy world to navigate when you are new and have to deal with all the politics. There is no respect and trust with what I have seen.. I can not tell you how much gossip I hear, has been spread about me when I post here etc…it is disheartening because I wanted to be involved in the Basenji community but with what I see ( this as an example) it isn't a place I want to be in my spare time and I wouldn't subject Oakley to it either. To me, with what is happening, I am being a better Basenji owner than if I were involved.

There's gossip spread about you on this forum?? In what way may I ask. I been on this forum for 4 years and it seems pretty good to me. And how do you hear so much gossip? There are times when it may get a little heated now and then but hey it's a discussion forum. If someone's too obnoxious they get the boot.

[sinbaje]

@tanza:

People might be able to join and make a comment, duly noted that they are ignored with some exceptions when others are "assigned" to tasks and are not even members of the committee, just observers.

I must have missed the being ignored part as I have not seen that personally - at least not intentionally; with in excess of 1400 posts flying around in a matter of weeks - it would be easy to lose track of things.

As for assigning tasks to folks that are just observers - where is the harm in embracing everyone as much as possible, whenever possible, especially when committee members seemingly do not want to do it themselves. I see no harm in that. These folks might be future volunteers, no need to treat them as second class citizens.

@tanza:

And Linda, your attacks are directed at me personally as noted by Therese, my vent to you was because of an attack to me personally.

Sorry but I do not feel I am attacking you. Instead I am defending the HRC, the BCOA and the BHE with contrary information than what you would have folks beleive thus allowing others to make an informed opine.

And your vent to me privately was not in regards to any attack, real or implied, by me against you on the HRC list. I am not sure why you would imply that. As I stated to you in my reply:

"I said xxxxx's post re: the need for action of the BHE is how I personally read xxxx's reply to your enthusiasm. It was obvious to me at least she was asking for you - as the committee member - to join forces with xxxxx as a non-member to come up with a call to action for the BHE, Board or Membership. Other than that I never said a word about you by name in any of my posts."

So I am stull unsure why you felt the need to vent to me and accuse me of things I did not do.

Chealsie508 - I have to agree with you 100%. Even as a long standing BCOA member and a current Board member it is not an easy world to navigate and certainly not a pleasant one in recent months.

I have always found my way by listening to both sides then looking in the middle for the truth.

[Chealsie508]

Nobarkus- Well, I prefer not to come out and say it but much of what I post about on the forum whether it be asking questions or which threads I respond to stirs things up for me outside the forum. As to how I know about much of what goes on, that too corresponds outside the forum. Like I have said, I prefer not to say too much because I am in the process of looking to get Oakley a Basenji sister and I do not want to jeopardize that but lets just say that my introduction to basenji's after getting Oakley has not been rainbows and butterflies. In my experience many stones are being cast from all directions and I feel as though the emphasis is being taken off of the breed and become more about people being right/wrong/better or worse etc… I want to be a part of the BCOA and a part of events and even attend shows as both Oakley and I would get great joy out of the experience but until I feel better about the political aspect of it I choose to remove myself from it.
To clarify, I completely agree Pat that it is the responsibility of owners and those who care about the breed to get involved for the betterment of the breed. While I advocate for it, I also know why many choose not to.

[nobarkus]

@Chealsie508:

Nobarkus- Well, I prefer not to come out and say it but much of what I post about on the forum whether it be asking questions or which threads I respond to stirs things up for me outside the forum. As to how I know about much of what goes on, that too corresponds outside the forum. Like I have said, I prefer not to say too much because I am in the process of looking to get Oakley a Basenji sister and I do not want to jeopardize that but lets just say that my introduction to basenji's after getting Oakley has not been rainbows and butterflies. In my experience many stones are being cast from all directions and I feel as though the emphasis is being taken off of the breed and become more about people being right/wrong/better or worse etc… I want to be a part of the BCOA and a part of events and even attend shows as both Oakley and I would get great joy out of the experience but until I feel better about the political aspect of it I choose to remove myself from it.
To clarify, I completely agree Pat that it is the responsibility of owners and those who care about the breed to get involved for the betterment of the breed. While I advocate for it, I also know why many choose not to.

Sorry to hear it's not going well for you. I have seen 3-4 people in person outside the forum at a meet up or event but we never talked about the forum.

[agilebasenji]

@Chealsie508:

Lastly, I will say this: everyone who gets nasty or crazy says it is because they love the breed, well let me tell you this:
I have chosen not to get involved in any BCOA activities or into lure coursing or agility or even go to shows for the sole reason that I DO NOT want to witness or be part of the garbage that comes out of some adults mouths. Now tell me how that helps the breed that MANY MANY people feel so discouraged that they do not get involved? Now thats a shame!

This part of your post really caught my eye especially with regard to agility. I've done agility competitively since 1999 and I got to say the agility community is one of the most supportive, caring communities I've ever encountered. I've also done conformation, coursing, dabbled in rally, and therapy work. Have I ever heard some poor comments in agility, well, yes, but mostly it's a friendly bunch. 99% of my encounters with my fellow agility competitors, judges and workers have been VERY positive. And I'm not about to let that 1% change how I decide to look at things. How many agility trials have you been to?

Conformation can be sort of a mixed bag, but mostly I've met nice, good people. Some are rather poor loosers or poor winners, but most are pretty good apples in the bunch. Sometimes the judges' descision makes NO sense, but I try not to dwell on that too much. LC can also be a little bit of a mixed bag, but my dogs enjoy it so much. Certainly the fun runs are worth going to. Therapy work is pretting interesting from this aspect. Most people are receptive, but I've also been cussed out and one lady tried to run over my dog with her walker yelling at us all the way.

But really, I believe mostly these basenji people are a pretty good bunch. If you don't believe me, take a look at my most recent thread titled "Zest". I've never even met most of those people in real life. And there were even more emails of concern from the basenji list.

[DebraDownSouth]

Wow… okay then. Can I ask that maybe someone start a Health committee thread and move the debate about them there?

On Basenji breeders/showing etc. I guess for me it is different. I came from Rottweilers. OMG you have no idea what gossip and nastiness is. Perhaps it is the type of persons who want them, perhaps it is a massive population making competition more fierce. But when we got Sayblee and were showing, total noobs, there was not ONE SINGLE BREEDER, handler or owner who was not kind, supportive and helpful. Not one. Not a snide comment when this newbie walked in and won, not one indication of anything but shared congratulations. Is there gossip... yeah. Come on, there are gossip/nastiness in every community, church, organization. Do what you like, be it show or agility or lure coursing, and tune out the negatives. You really can do it all and avoid politics.

Linda, thanks re: BCOA.

As for not being able to give out info, that has me confused. With a short list of critical questions, why would posting results which are bonafide facts/stats, be an issue with anyone. They are what they are.

[Chealsie508]

I guess people have had better luck than me in regards to their experiences. Debra, you are right that many breeds are far worse in regards to the nastiness and it is in every community. I would just like to see it die down. To be fair I haven't been to many events so you all could be right that there is less drama there… I just know what I have seen, been dragged into and gone through, much of which was uncalled for. Let me just say, that since I have had Oakley there have been a couple times I needed advice or sought answers to questions and rather than be met with kindess I was met with harsh, unnecessary words, and for that things have been tainted ever since

[Chealsie508]

Agilebasenji, I appreciate the insight as I know you are far more experienced in the arena of events such as agility and coursing. It had made me consider about attending another lure coursing event when one comes up in the new England area. I suppose giving it another chance won't hurt. On a side note, I have been following zests thread and I do hope he is recovering quickly!