Using 2 studs with 1 bitch during breeding

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  • tanzaT

    @Andrew:

    About a year ago I learned that a bitch can actually be impregnated by more than one dog during a breeding, and can have puppies from multiple sires in one litter, all at the same time.
    I was just curious to hear from the breeders about their opinion on this. Is this something that could be done responsibly to get multiple looks in your puppies with multiple sires? Have any of the breeders here done it before? Is it a controversial topic? In my mind, it would seem if you had 2 very nice stud dogs, you could potentially attempt to breed for two slightly different types at once. However, my understanding is that with multiple breedings (even with the same sire), because puppies are always born a specific day during the cycle, not necessarily a certain number of days after conception, it can be dangerous for the pups that were conceived later because they weren't in the womb developing for as long as the pups that were conceived earlier.
    This is just a hypothetical question to prompt some discussion so I can learn a little more.

    I know a couple of breeders that have done this… one litter was with 8 or 10puppies (can't remember the number)... and all after DNA'ed came from the same sire which was a surprise to the breeder. One of the main reasons that breeders would consider this is if they have an older stud. I don't think it is controversial.. at least not IMO provided you are doing it with a good Repo Vet's input. And this one litter that I know of had no problems either in whelping or the pups after birth. I certainly would consider it.... However all that said, it is quite expensive and all the pups have to be DNA'ed to see who the sire is... more expense then you might want to put out up front.

    Pat Fragassi

    Tanza Basenjis

    www.tanzabasenjis.net

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  • QuercusQ

    I agree with everything said above. My understanding is that the eggs are all released at the same time (like within 24hrs) but the sperm can hang around for 5+ days. So that is why the window for breeding is several days…to make sure you don't miss the eggs. That way nature prevents the situation you described..pups not being 'done'. But what does create pups not appearing to be the same gestational age in the same litter is where the placenta attaches to the uterus. Apparently, there are occasionally "bad" spots to attach. Also, if there are indentical twins in a litter (in the same sac) one may be underdeveloped....but from what I have heard, this rarely happens.

    I am no expert, but I did a lot of reading before Bella's litter...and this is what I can remember :)

    Andrea Walters

    Quercus Basenjis

    NW Ohio

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  • YodelDogsY

    I have no problem with breeders who choose multiple sires as a breeding option. If both males are in close proximity of one another, there is no reason why natural breedings can't be done. If the males are located too far apart for daily breedings to the bitch then one or both may need to be AI'd. DNA testing both sires, the dam, and every puppy is required and then AKC registration can run several hundred dollars but there are many situations when it is well worth the expense.

    Robyn Dubbert

    Sherwood Basenjis

    One thing that I have learned in life is to accept that things are not all black or all white. Life is shades of gray and just because someone sees a different shade of gray than you do, it doesn't mean their shade is right or wrong, its just different. ~ Robyn Dubbert

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  • listemeL

    I lost a LOT of confidence in one of the vets at the practice I go to when he claimed that this is not possible in dogs. I didn't argue, because that's not my way, but I have not gone with that particular vet again.

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  • NemoN

    I remember seeing a breeding on a website last year using dual sires, one of which was a full African and the other a high percentage African. That made sense to me as you're not really sure what you'll get with full Afs particularly if they have not been bred before. In theory under ideal circumstances, you would get some idea of what they both might produce with the same bitch without having to wait around to do multiple single sire breedings. I didn't look check back to see what the actual parentage ended up being in the litter.

    Connect with the Basenji Club of America on Facebook

    http://www.facebook.com/basenji.org

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  • lvossL

    From what I have been able to find out from people who have attempted multiple sire litters, the most effective way to actually get puppies from each sire is to do surgical implant 72 hours after ovulation with one sire's semen in one horn and the other sire's semen in other horn of the uterus. In the majority of natural breedings with multiple sires the puppies are either all from one sire or only 1 or 2 from the second sire even in large litters.

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  • AndrewA

    Thanks for the answers guys. Breeding is fascinating.

    Carrie & the Brindle Babes, Callie & Lola (Not Andrew)

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  • thunderbird8588T

    I knew Kittens could have different fathers but wasn't sure about Dogs. This explains how our crossbreed Dog was so very different from the rest of the Pups. He wasn't like mum or dad and his sibs were medium sized Black and white collie types. He was a massive Red Lab type.

    Shelley

    Basenji Malaika

    Basenji Malaika
    Basenji Kwame

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  • YodelDogsY

    @lvoss:

    From what I have been able to find out from people who have attempted multiple sire litters, the most effective way to actually get puppies from each sire is to do surgical implant 72 hours after ovulation with one sire's semen in one horn and the other sire's semen in other horn of the uterus. In the majority of natural breedings with multiple sires the puppies are either all from one sire or only 1 or 2 from the second sire even in large litters.

    I don't think I would do this with a breed like the Basenji where an average litter size is 4-5 puppies but it make a lot of sense to do in breeds that have litter sizes of 10+ puppies.

    I'm puzzled why planned multiple sire litters would end up with one male predominating fertility? Dogs and cats that run loose and breed randomly sometimes have litters where every puppy or kitten has a different sire. They breed to multiple partners every day so it would seem that breeding a bitch to both males daily would increase the likelihood of both sires fertilizing the bitch. Does anyone know if any studies have been done on this?

    Robyn Dubbert

    Sherwood Basenjis

    One thing that I have learned in life is to accept that things are not all black or all white. Life is shades of gray and just because someone sees a different shade of gray than you do, it doesn't mean their shade is right or wrong, its just different. ~ Robyn Dubbert

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  • lvossL

    @YodelDogs:

    I'm puzzled why planned multiple sire litters would end up with one male predominating fertility? Dogs and cats that run loose and breed randomly sometimes have litters where every puppy or kitten has a different sire. They breed to multiple partners every day so it would seem that breeding a bitch to both males daily would increase the likelihood of both sires fertilizing the bitch. Does anyone know if any studies have been done on this?

    The information that I have seen does not support that most mixed breed litters have multiple sires. Though there may be 1 or 2 pups with a different sire much of the variety seen in mixed breed litters are because there is more diversity of alleles in the parents (often mutts themselves) so less uniformity in the litter.

    I do believe that there a few studies that show that nature has made it so that once a male has successfully impregnated a female there are biochemical changes that occur that make a subsequent sire less likely to be successful in some species.

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  • DebraDownSouthD

    Seems like a question for Hutchinson. I know he does tons of implants, he may know about actual splits. Probably AKC does too. If I can remember I'll look or ask both.

    Debra

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  • A

    Thinking about studding my Basenji

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    DebraDownSouthD
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  • T

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    NemoN
    Seems like the DNA sample would be easier to get too. :rolleyes: I guess the advantage of the sperm count is that you at least know if the sire is fertile or not. Good luck, can't wait to see pictures of the pups to be.
  • jkmcd673J

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    BeckyB
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  • WBLW

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    tanzaT
    @Quercus: <> Right...I wasn't sure if that was the litter that Sue was referring to? But I don't know of her doing any other brother/sister breeding. So yes, Ariel is a product of that breeding. The idea was to do a test breeding to see what genetically, if anything, might be brought out. By doing an inbreeding, you can 'expose' recessive genes, and see what you've actually got. You can also set (as in permanantly set) type...but, that wasn't the goal in Sue/Jeff's breeding. In this case, the two "best" "typey" puppies from this litter will most likely be bred on from, as long as they test out as genetically and physically healthy, they will most likely be out-crossed, to bring in different genes. Ariel's brother, George, is quite stunning, and is easily the best looking puppy in the litter. Ariel has a beautiful head, but is long in body, short in leg. Neither one is what we consider a "show dog" ;) And the litter's sire is quite handsome!.... the dam of the litter, while long in the back and short on leg (like it sounds Ariel is) has a great temperament... both are great to build on the future.... and breeding out from these pups will be great to build on too.... I am pretty sure that would be the breeding Sue was talking about, like you I don't know of any other brother/sister breeding she and Jeff has done.
  • S

    Interested in breeding

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    lvossL
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