@creambasenji said in New Puppy Advice:
She's 9 months and 8.5 pounds. Doesn't seem she will be getting any bigger
This must be a typo. 9 months or 9 weeks?
At any rate, I'd love to see a picture of a cream Basenji, toy or not.
I need help naming my new basenji pup!!
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If you have a basenji club in your area, that would be a good place to get feedback on your pup, re quality.
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Lela- thats at least what she looks like to me
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well she has shown, she does not show anymore. She has a few champions. She knows from her previous experience i assume and by AKC standards. She just said out of the puppies she had she would make the BEST show pup, of the litter.
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Typically, when a breeder is placing a pup as "show potential" they will go over the pup with the new owner and show them what they see in that puppy. This is especially important if the puppy is being placed with someone new to the breed. Whether in person, via video, or through many well shot photos of all sides of the puppies, the breeder should be able to take you through the dog's entire conformation. They should point out the areas they feel are particular strengths as well as show you where they feel the dog's faults are. These things are important for you to know. When you show you will want to try to emphasize the strengths while downplaying the faults.
This process also helps you see what method they use for grading a litter. There are several different takes on grading though many have similarities. Probably the best known is Pat Hastings' Puppy Puzzle.
I would highly recommend getting the book Tricks of Trade by Pat Hastings. It has a good section about how to evaluate your dog for conformation.
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O i didnt know they did that. I have a female basenji, she is 10 now. but we just got her from a friend not a breeder. I guess i have never actually gotten a puppy/basenji from a breeder before, just a friend or shelter. I will see if i can talk to her about the pluses and faults of her and her showing quality.
ill look into the book and see if i can get it. Thanks for the advice.
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For names, this site will keep you busy for a few hours.
http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/Names.htm
One request though…please do not use the "Of The Congo" part of her parents names in your dog's registered name. That affix was used by Veronica Tudor-Williams, one of the founders of the breed. When other people use the name, like the people who named your puppy's parents, it shows disrespect.
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Thanks a bunch for the reply, ill check out the link when i get done here.
and No worries, I wasnt planning on using it. but I didnt know it was the founder of the breed. That is very cool to know.
No I was planning on naming her something like Dreamlite's Big Bucks, and then her name could be Cash. -this is just an example i havent chosen her name or call name yet. but Im thinking something like that. -Thanks 
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No I was planning on naming her something like Dreamlite's Big Bucks, and then her name could be Cash. -this is just an example i havent chosen her name or call name yet. but Im thinking something like that. -Thanks
What did you end up naming her?
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We have finally decided what we are naming her!
Her name is Marli. –like Marley and me.
Her registered name is Prairieland's forbidden Secret!
Thank you everyone for all the help! I also got her today and she is everything I hoped for!
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OMG you people are so polite. I am inspired to try to type this as politely as possible. it will be very hard. But sometimes beating around the bush isn't the way to protect the breed.
Good breeders, responsible breeders, do not sell puppies without limited registration (ie must be spayed or neutered) unless they feel the puppy truly is show potential and the HOME knowledgeable and willing to do things right. Keeping co-ownership is common to make SURE it is done right before the concept of breeding ever is done.
A good breeder educates their potential puppy homes. It sounds like you called GOOD breeders who offered you pet quality puppies but you wanted one you could totally control. I understand the desire, but understand a GOOD breeder feels responsibility to their dogs, NOT YOU, in doing what is right.
I would never, in a million years, have sold you a puppy without co-owning or on limited and insisted on mentoring you along if you really wanted to get into showing. A GOOD breeder really would love to have you learn from them and help you. But they would have held onto controls to protect that puppy.
Please, back up. Forget breeding. Get books on pedigrees, genetics and find show mentors who can help you learn to show and understand what you are doing. It isn't likely your puppy is special enough to warrant breeding. But she can be a superb learning tool and fun while you learn the things you need to know so that the next puppy has all the potential. I say that without looking at the pedigree because frankly, when experts here know dogs 3 or 4 generations back, it reveals as much as anyone needs to know. Well that and the ad for these puppies.
My dogs both have NOTHING but champions in every single generation for 5 generations. Guess what, got championship on Sayblee, spayed her. Spayed the other. Why? Because even with great looking pedigrees (and your pups doesn't come close), not all dogs should be bred. Improving the breed means taking a hard look at what really is improving. It also means setting aside your own wants for the benefit of the dog and breed. Did you know that not spaying this puppy before her first heat increases her chances of cancer? Do you know how much it costs to do it RIGHT, from titling, testing, finding the RIGHT stud with titles and tests?
There are many fine good breeders here. I know Rottweilers, rottie lines, rottie genetics. I can look at a pedigree going back 40 yrs and tell you issues. I can't do that at all with Basenji. So I leave the breeding to those folks… even though I am very very very knowledgeable about canine genetics and disorders in general.
I know you dismiss people who say don't breed. So I am sure this post will be dismissed. But I hope not. I hope you start reading to LEARN, open yourself up to being totally responsible about the breed, and if you are set on breeding, that you start putting away the major funds you will need to buy a quality bitch and do it right. And just have fun and learn on this puppy, or spay her and start taking handling classes, hanging out at shows, find a mentor and really learn. And btw, I took 2 1/2 yrs to buy my first Rottie. And I still made mistakes, big ones. But now, with the internet, there is no excuse for not learning and understanding what puppymills, backyard breeding and irresponsible breeding is and choosing to NOT be part of those folks.
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ok. Im going to be as nice as i can.
I appreciate you taking time to write that, however you dont know me. I dont PLAN on breeding her unless I can get a title. If i find a stud that matches her genetics. I HAVE read up on things, I HAVE gone to shows. I HAVE talked to breeders and had long conversations with them. I HAVE done all the things you said. I am also rescueing dogs here in South Dakota. www.foreverfriendsrescue.webs.com
I know all about the pros and cons of spaying and neutering. I always encourage people to spay and neuter. And Yes, that is great that you have 5 champions. Actually, you may not have read my page, but It says specifically in there that I want to someday do that, get 5 generations of champion lines. Im not saying im doing any of it soon and im not trying to be rude but before you go and start saying things maybe you should just confront me in person. My site is attached, my email is on there. You dont have to go around posting things when you have NO IDEA who i am or what I am doing.
People are "polite" on here because we all talk and we all care about the breed, hence why its a Basenji forum. I also ask that if people want to be rude, not to do it on my posted forums. I truely and genuinely care about basenjis, I have 2. one is a 10 yr old spayed female, the other is the 8 month old. They both sleep under my covers at night and they have free run of the house. I understand that ALOT of breeders do co-ownerships or limited. but if you didnt know, SOME will allow it without it if you have talked to them for a long time, they know you and you know them. This is the only year she allowed the full registration and next years puppies will only be limited. Me and Valeri know each other and are friends. We talked and we had an understanding that I would adopt a puppy that was not on limited and was all mine, one who i can breed–IF I CHOOSE TO--or spay--IF I CHOOSE TO. It was an individual basis only here. I go to her with my breeding/show/basenji questions and I also go to Teresa of Hestekin Hills. I talk to alot of breeders actually, and I dont like people saying things that--in my opinion-- seem like your insisting ill be a puppy mill or a backyard breeder. I AM NOT NOR WILL I EVER BE ONE. I care about this breed and I will not put them through that type of situation. I have an adoption contract stating that they are to be returned to me anytime in their lifetime or any reason. I will always take a puppy back. I have many things in there. --My application was copied and revised, with prior approval, from Teresa Hestekin.
Now I dont want us to be on the wrong foot as I do not know you, and you do not know me. If youd like to continue talking about this in email, feel free to email me at barklessdogs@hotmail.com
Please, if you are going to say things like that about me, do it to my face and not on a public forum. To me, that is just rude and inconsiderate.
have a nice day
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Is your dog Missy, her offspring and the sire listed in the Basenji Pedigree Database? If not, please e-mail Sally Wallis and give her the information. I attended a dog auction in SD several years ago and am wondering if the Bs that were for sale there are related to any of your Bs. They were APRI registered. They were owned by a woman in SD who was a USDA licensed dealer/breeder but at least two of the female Bs were originally from a breeder in western MN, Daniel Kuehne, another USDA licensed breeder who in July 2008 had 200 puppies and 349 adult dogs. I believe Missy is a half sister to my Bambi, a rescue from the dog auction, via the sire whose kennel name was Kalahari.
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First, I said nothing that was inappropriate for the forum. Not one single thing was not on target about what should be done. It contained no attacks on you. Simply good solid RESPONSIBLE advice.
Second, nah not going there.But I do suggest that your comment that you want to GET 5 generations is perplexing. IMNSHO, you START with a dog with at LEAST 75 (hopefully more) percent of EACH of 5 generations titled to start with.
And: I dont PLAN on breeding her unless I can get a title. If i find a stud that matches her genetics. I HAVE read up on things,
A title isn't ENOUGH. A stud that matches her pedigree would be what… almost any mediocre pet? Matching a pedigree means you have enough information from health testing titling, and health testing of OFFSPRING, to really know what they produce. You don't have that for this dog. And the comment about her letting this year's go unlimited but next year not has my head spinning. It is obvious that you have not read much of value. A responsible breeder decides on the quality of the pups and pedigree, not a year, when and which pups to let go to potential show/breeding homes. Period.Done now. I recognize when a topic is dead.
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The problem I have in seeing you as a responsible breeder is that you are already advertising a possible litter for 2011 when your bitch will not even be old enough to have an adult hip rating from OFA. The Canine Health Information Center requires OFA Hip rating, CERF exam, OFA Thyroid testing, and Fanconi Marker Test for a CHIC certificate for basenjis. This information is most helpful when it is part of a big picture of testing including results for parents, grand parents, siblings, aunts, uncles, etc and CERF and Thyroid testing repeated as recommended to catch changes. Without the big picture you will only have the snapshot of your dog at that one moment and not have much to work with to predict future issues.
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The problem I have in seeing you as a responsible breeder is that you are already advertising a possible litter for 2011 when your bitch will not even be old enough to have an adult hip rating from OFA. The Canine Health Information Center requires OFA Hip rating, CERF exam, OFA Thyroid testing, and Fanconi Marker Test for a CHIC certificate for basenjis. This information is most helpful when it is part of a big picture of testing including results for parents, grand parents, siblings, aunts, uncles, etc and CERF and Thyroid testing repeated as recommended to catch changes. Without the big picture you will only have the snapshot of your dog at that one moment and not have much to work with to predict future issues.
yikes, thats like encouraging a teenage girl to start having children.
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yikes, thats like encouraging a teenage girl to start having children.
You mean telling people about the required health testing and need to have health information on relatives is like encouraging a teenage girl to start having children? Or do you mean breeding a animal under the age of 2 is like encouraging a teenage girl to start having children?
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Erm, I didn't understand that last comment above…when did teenagers enter?? Anyway,
I must agree with Lisa though, since it appears the only viable bitch you have to breed is 8 months old - untested and not yet appraised by a proper judge - it surprises me to see you would be expecting a litter in 2011. Furthermore the only names you have listed as references (ie Hestekin Hills' Teresa Hestekin) has a reputation of being a poor breeder and confirmed backyard breeder. There have been multiple email alerts (not just on Basenji Forums) concerning her breeding practises. Reading through her site her claims are rather ludicrous when she confronts over pet population and the role of the SPCA. Finally the cost of a puppy is positively extortionate - 1200 for 6 month old unshown Bitch? And her kennel on Puppyfind has Akita pups for $2000. I'm not saying she is you, I'm saying this might not be the person you want as a counsellor.
Remember all good Breeders start the same, with a passion. A passion for the dogs they love; I think it's evident that you appreciate Basenjis. That passion however is not enough without knowledge, a deep knowledge of the long history this breed professes to (ie knowing your bloodlines, kennel names, origins and life histories of the first Basenjis brought back from Africa) Good breeders will have a excellent mind for the genetics of their dogs, because they will have given the time and energy to academic study and reflection in order to make a match that will produce the soundest puppies possible. A reputable breeder will welcome constructive criticism with a fervent eagerness, because it's not about us (or about a profit), it’s about the dogs. I think from reading over your website quite thoroughly that you genuinely want to work with Basenjis. That’s brilliant. So ask yourself, when was the last time I took a course in Biology? When was the last time I was attending competitive shows and chasing down BCOA members to counsel me? Could I myself evaluate a puppy for show quality? How many years have I devoted to knowing this breed inside and out as much as I can, down through the pedigrees? What are the differences in body type between an English bloodline dog and a Finnish pedigreed dog today? Am I in good standing with a recognised dog club, so my peers can support and guide me? What are the faults in my dogs? How would I genetically improve that and what are the statistical odds of that happening? Do I have the monetary resources to invest in my breeding adventure? A recent tally of a reputable breeding put the cost of $4,000+ to the breeder, I think she might have had 4 puppies but it could have been 3. All of them sold for less than $900. Do I have the money and the knowhow if something goes terribly wrong with my bitch’s pregnancy? These are good questions (certainly not a comprehensive list) and they should be concretely answered before having a litter. So understand that every breeder starts where you are, with a life of love for dogs and a desire to serve the breed. I believe that if you reach out and ask for help it will be given to you. There are MULTIPLE trustworthy breeders on the forum, use them! I think a courageous thing to do as well is to have your bitch evaluated by the most trained eyes you can find – and listen to what those people say. Use your enthusiasm to be the very best you can be, and that is a lifetime worth of work, but a life worth living when your ambitions are recognised.
As a small side note, you mentioned you watch Cesar Millan. I don’t know if you watch or practice but in my opinion it would behove you to read the recent article that was posted on the Forum about his methods and follow that up with the reading Lisa supplied. Basenjis respond very very poorly to these kinds of training methods.
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You mean telling people about the required health testing and need to have health information on relatives is like encouraging a teenage girl to start having children? Or do you mean breeding a animal under the age of 2 is like encouraging a teenage girl to start having children?
i meant breeding a dog under the age of two. sorry i thought i was clear but thats what I get for posting so late!
And it was a comparison of the maturity both physically and mentally, from what I understand breeding a dog under the age of 1 is like breeding a 12 year old and breeding a dog under 2 is like breeding a teenager. I believe i read that in a stanley coren book.
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ok the topic is dead. Ill just end with that also. Im not going to fight you because i do not wish to. Thank you for the advice ill take it to heart. I appologize if you do not like me, tho we do not know each other. And I do not know you, but how did you get started? because someone had to have given you a break in order for you to start breeding, didnt they? –im honestly asking, not in a sarcastic rude way.
Ivoss. Ihavent have internet for a while, I have to go to the library and I had a friend offer to update my site for me because she likes doings things like that, I let her, and she misunderstood what I told her. I will not be having a litter in 2011. I said POSSIBLY in 2012 IF Marli is all tested and the tests are admirable to breed then I MIGHT breed her however it is not planned and I appologize, that doesnt look good and i agree....I agree she will not be old enough to breed because they have to be at least 2 for the tests to be mostly accurate and she will not be. I want all the testing to be done before that. Please do not hold it against me. I will be editing my own site from now on so things do not get confused.
Honestly, I feel attacked and, tho i know it is not meant it, I do. I love this breed, I LOVE dogs. I have saved over 300 dogs since 2008 when i founded my rescue, I have been around dogs my whole life, my father taught me how to train them, groom them, and both of my parents taught me to be a caring individual for all animals, including dogs. I am the MOST animal loving human being on the earth. I stop and help turtles that are on the side of the road, I once saved a little bird whos feet were stuck on the highway because it landed in wet asphalt. If i see a stray dog, I find a home for it, or i look hard to find the owner. Ill try to catch him/her so that it doesnt get hit by a car. If im busy or in a rush i STILL do it because i genuinely care about dogs...Some people that know me think I care more about dogs than anything else in the world...even people...SOME cases i do agree with them. ...but honeslty I dont know how to show everyone...and because no one knows me it doesnt really matter, that I truely want to better the breed...and also that I am not in this for money. Money is the last thing on my mind if i were to breed. If you met me, im sure you would agree. And I know just being an animal lover is not a reason to breed and I agree, its not. and Im NOT saying she will be the dog I breed and im not saying I wont get another puppy that is in good lines. Im saying that if i do breed her--IM NOT SAYING I WILL--she would be the potential mother of the puppies. I AM looking into finding a champion lined breeder and im saving up. I want to enter her in shows because it would be a fun thing to do. I may never breed her, I DONT KNOW. But its always fun to have practice and experience. I have already spoken to my vet about the testing and once he gets the tests in (like fanconi and other need-to-get-tests) ill be having her tested for everything.
I appologize If I have offended anyone. I also apologize even though I feel I have nothing to apoligize for. But I do because I am a kind hearted, easy going person and I do not like fights. I appreciate everyone who has helped and put their two sense in, and I appreciate everyone who was kind and polite about it.
Thank you for the input and if anyone would like to talk about thi, or basenjis, Id love to chat. Its always nice to hear from basenji lovers and hear the stories of their dogs.
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I don't think Debra was attacking you. I think she felt that it was not strongly pointed out that your philosophy for building a responsible breeding program had several major flaws.
What I saw Debra doing was trying to point out the need for a sound foundation and that even doing everything we can to get that we sometimes find at maturity that it doesn't work out.
To build a strong foundation it is not good enough to buy a female and just do the testing and competing with her and call it good. At this time, only 2 hereditary diseases in the breed had a DNA test and one is only a marker test so it still behooves us to gather multi-generational data. For those diseases with no DNA test the only way to figure the odds of producing the disease is to have both depth and breadth of pedigree tested. If you go to OFA and pull up the health pedigree for your dog how many "holes" are there for Hips, Eyes, and Thyroid? This is something that should be considered when you first contact breeders.
Titled dogs in a pedigree is not a guaruntee of quality but it does say something about the commitment of the owners/breeders of the dogs. To title in the various venues out there it takes a commitment of both time and money. It also shows the person has pride in their animal and is willing to put them out there in front of judges, breeders, and exhibitors to see. When most of the pedigrees is untitled dogs, that leaves the question, who besides the breeder ever saw and evaluated these animals?
As for co-ownership, this is not something that shoud be a horrible burden that a person seeks to avoid. This should be something a beginner seeks out because they are looking to build lasting relationships in the basenji community and want mentorship in the breed. Breeders ask for co-ownerships with novice owners because they have invested years of their time and heart into their breeding programs and they care about what happens to each puppy. They want novices to be successful and want to help them achieve that success.
Right now, your puppy is 8 months old. Thoughts of breeding whether it is in 2011 or 2012 should be the furthest things from your mind right now. You should be enjoying puppy classes, starting showing training and entering matches and fun events. These first couple of years is all about learning what your dog has to offer the breed.
