@eeeefarm - Totally agree with both of you, while I don't do the "restrain the pup", but if it works great and in a pinch it does work for me if really needed. When we have pups (babies) and Mom is tired of them and puts herself in a position that they can't reach her, they turn to the next adult in the house.... same thing will happen if they get over excited and yes, I have seen Basenji Moms, pin the pup to the ground and/or other adults in the home.... so it is something that a pup understands. Walking away works for me... or I try to change up the "game" by turning to working their minds and getting them to think about other things. In the Basenji Breed this is another way of teaching them that the prior behavior is not acceptable. They learn pretty quickly. Thanks for posting this thread eeeefarm... well needed...
Fighting among my basejis
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Help i started out with a female basenji pup 12 years ago.. 2 years later i got another female pup. Big mistake… They were fine until the younger one started challenging the older one. The fights esculated and got worse over the years. When
they were 6 and 4 i bought a male pup. The older girl claimed him and would not let basenji 2 touch him. Basenji 1 died of fanconi a year later. All was great between the remaining female and the male and they were best friends. The only problem was the female never was a playful dog and the male seemed so depressed. 6 months ago i agreed to take in a 2 year old female from a rescue. At first all was fine but then the older female once again started challenging the younger female. The fights esculated and the male is now siding with the younger one. My older female always starts the fights and she ends up getting the worst of it every time. I know if it continues the younger two will kill her, the last time she almost had her ear bitten off by the male. Whenthe two females are alone together they will tolerate each other pretty well but when the male is with them things get worse. If i lock the younger female up the older one will challenge her through the cage. Who is really the problem here ? I think it is the older one, but of course she has been so good all her life, never chews thing up, never runs away and is not hyper like other basenjis. I am tired of seperating them and getting bitten from breaking up the fights.i love all three, any solutions or suggestions ? Please, i am desperate. -
You could bring in a professional to evaluate and try to help you learn to better manage them but I doubt they will ever be really trustworthy around each other. If you cannot run a separated household you may need to consider returning the younger female to rescue.
Have you noticed what triggers the fights? Do you know how to read the early signals that the dogs give each other that a fight is coming so you can interrupt them before they escalate? Are you able to redirect the behavior before an actual fight breaks out?
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I have the same problem with my pack. I have my female basenji and then 3 years later I brought home a male B. We moved to an acreage and wanted a bigger outside dog. My male gets along with everything, he is so playful and just wants to run and play with the other dogs, ie: in dog parks. I bought my husband a 4 yo male Nova Scotia Duck Tolling retriever thinking they would get along famously. Not so much, I think I should have got a puppy. My female likes the NSDT but my male and him don't get along and have gotten into a couple of fights, with my B being on the losing end. They can go for months and months without a fight and then all of a sudden I am running out into the yard to break them up. I too have also been bitten, by the B never by the NSDT. Right now when I am home I rotate them ( I had knee surgery and cannot get to them if they are fighting right now). When my husband is home they are outside together and they don't really mind. But I always have to keep an eye on them. If the NSDT gets too excited this is when they seem to start fighting, so we play with them separately, etc. You may have to do the same thing.
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We've all heard of problems when two females are together, but perhaps the problem is simply that there are three dogs. Even in human households, it's pretty normal for two to get along, but when there are three (like me and my two sisters) one is always the odd one out. Your poor older female seems to be getting the worst of this situation, so maybe returning the younger female is best until she has had her time here.
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"Two is company, three's a crowd" seems to be true for dogs. Everyone knows an exception, but even with my horses I see the "odd man out" with that number. My neighbour had two Rotties (boy & girl) that got along fine. She added a third (not on a whim, it was a rescue), and now the two females hate each other and can't be trusted together without supervision. I had three dogs here for quite some time, but only two in the house, so there was no "pack" issue. In my experience, once a female Basenji has decided she doesn't like another girl, she seldom changes her mind…...
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6 months ago i agreed to take in a 2 year old female from a rescue.
Who is really the problem here ?I am not even reading the other answers, so if repeat or contradicts, I don't know or care.
The problem here is you and the rescue who let you put another female in a home with a female you already KNOW wants to be the only female. Period.
Having lived and separated such a female for almost 5 yrs before she died, having seen the stress she created for every dog in this house, particularly my chow/coyote who did not want to hurt her but simply get her off when someone messed up and didn't supervise or let both out, and my poor Arwen who since Sayblee died has become this wonderful new dog, I am begging you, give the new dog back to the rescue. Do it for her, for your male and your female. Your male need companionship– play with him, exercise him, give him a lot of training, find a play partner. But get the 2nd female out of your house. It is fair to no one. They can't tell you what hell it is to LIVE every moment of every day waiting for an attack, no matter who wins. Get her out. Please.
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Are all the dogs spayed/neutered? How old are the dogs? Has the older female had a complete thyroid test done?
Jennifer
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Mine were spayed and neutered at 6 months . The rescue was spayed just before i got her. She has bonded so tightly with my male that they stick together like glue. My older female was never a playful dog even as a puppy. She was so serious and worried all he life. This dog has never been bad in her life. But she is so jealous. The rescue and my male play all the time and the young female mothers the male. Why can't they all just get along?
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You might consider re-homing your older female; it sounds like, though she has been there longer, that she is the 'odd man out'. She might find happiness as an only dog in a new situation. I know the idea of rehoming any of your dogs, especially the older one, probably seems unthinkable, please consider it. From what you describe, you will likely never have peace so your choices are keeping them separated all the time, or finding a new home for one of them.
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I'm not an expert on dog behavior, but does anyone think a fourth dog could help neutralize some of the aggression? I currently have 2 girls and 1 boy, and it's my youngest girl, Lola, that's the most aggressive in my pack.
What is your reaction when the 2 dogs get aggressive with the older girl? Do you assert yourself as the "pack leader", and try to take control of the situation? I'm not a huge believer in the Dominance theory, but whenever my youngest, Lola, becomes overly snarky at the older dogs, I WILL exhibit a dominant behavior with her. (For example, if she is on my lap, Becca approaches and Lola snarks, I will tell her "NO" and put her on the ground. If she gets too aggressive when she's playing with Becca and it seems like it's more bullying than playing, I will scoop Lola up, put my hand over her muzzle, and use my parental voice to say, "Lola, NO. STOP." If she gets fidgety and tries to get down, I continue to hold her tightly until she stops. My male dog, Joker, is fickle and will ping-pong between my two girls, but when Lola gets aggressive and I correct her, he will immediately back off of Becca. By removing Lola from the situation, Joker calms down and Becca gets her balance back, so to speak. )
For my dogs, sometimes the snarkiness can be traced back to something that I've done… for example, when they get treats, like raw hides. Lola's strategy is to politely take her treat from me, but then she quickly retreats to an undisclosed location in our home to hide it! Shortly after, you'll spot Lola hunting Becca down, brazenly stealing her treat! Since I KNOW that this is Lola's mode of operation, I will give treats first to Becca and to Joker, which gives them time to run away. It also means that when Lola gets her treat, I will follow her to where she goes to hide her treat, and when she goes to find Becca, I will (depending on my mood :)) either discipline Lola and tell her to go get her treat, or I'll stop her and give her another treat... which she'll then enjoy.
Please keep us posted on what you decide to do. It would be hard for me to re-home a dog that I've loved since she was a pup, and if I was in your shoes, I would try to find a happy medium where they all get along. While you don't want any of them to be tragically injured, I hope you can find a happy balance within your home.
Hugs and Roos-
Patty -
Patty, you cannot "pack leader" a dog out of dog on dog aggression. Really you can't. It is what it is. You can separate but you cannot make a dog be different. And even separating, one mistake can end in a dead dog. And even with no mistakes, the stress is there. For you, for them.
Getting rough in play or guarding you can be minimized with your actions, but a dog gunning for another is a whole other world. I also wonder why you don't give the dogs treats in their crates and avoid all issues. Why should your poor dogs have to "run away" to enjoy their treats? Why not give them peace in separate rooms or crates or crate her til they are done. I don't believe in "dominance" or "discipline" for normal dog behaviors (food stealing/guarding) when simple management takes care of it. In fact, since you always have to do it– clearly your methods are not teaching them anything, so why not give them peace?
And my thoughts on rawhide, well-- hope your dogs survive them, many don't.
Nor would adding another dog help. Same sex aggression is not uncommon and having more dogs only ups your chance that some of THEM won't get along.
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Debra,
Perhaps you need to read this string tomorrow morning, when minds are fresh. The person who started this string started with a plea:
HELP!
In my very first line, I admit that I am NOT a dog expert, but I do tell her that I have a similar situation, of 2 females and 1 male, and that like her, my young female is the most dominant. From that point on, I tell her what I do, as a regular human being without formal training, to manage my "pack". I even state that I also do NOT believe in the Dominant disciplining, but let me tell you… when I change from being the normal Mom to the Dominatrix Momma... well, my little Lola KNOWS that she must behave. No, I don't hurt her. I control her body and force her to settle down before I release her. And I don't "release the hound" so that she can wind up and tear into little Becca.It's the dynamics of the family, of the pack, that wins.
I also asked the OP if perhaps her behavior could trigger the aggressive behavior... and then I cite an example of my personal experience... when I WAS GUILTY of creating a situation where Lola would dominate Becca.
Why don't I give treats in crates? Well Debra, you didn't ask me that question, but let me give you the answer: crates don't work well for my girls. If you've read my posts, you'd remember that when Lola went to PetSmart Hotel, they "upgraded" her into a private, SOUNDPROOF suite.... not because they were rewarding me, but because she cried SO loudly that you could hear her in the PetSmart store! And Becca.... well, when she was living in her last home with 3 other dogs, she was routinely crated and cried nonstop for hours. She was skin and bones when she came to my home, the poor darling. So for MY basenjis, Crates do NOT work. Crates are considered to be cruel and unusual punishment in their hearts (even though they've never been punished in them). I will NOT CRATE THEM.
And my thoughts on rawhide, well– hope your dogs survive them, many don't.
And your thoughts on Rawhide? Well, you don't explain why you consider these treats that are sold everyday in the doggy treat aisle to be so horrible!?! You just imply that I'm giving them to my dogs to kill them? Perhaps you could have elaborated politely what your concerns are about rawhide, to educate me and others that are reading this string? If you re-read my post, you'll see that I wrote, "LIKE rawhide"… because... true confession.... I don't give them rawhide anymore. Becca cannot digest them: she's the first dog I've had that's become violently ill because of rawhide bones. They sell green-colored Raw-hide shaped treats available at your local big box that boast: "easy to digest!" . I recently realized: these wonderfully "safe" treats are made in China, and I don't feel comfortable giving my dogs treats from China. So, I wrote, "LIKE rawhide" because the treats are neither rawhide nor the green fake rawhide, but are actually bones with marrow in them. (I didn't see why I would need to explain all of this, so I merely used the phrase, "like rawhide", to imply a treat that's adored by basenjis.)
I have four children that I'm fiercely proud of. They are all independent, loving and caring people, and if you'd meet them on the street, chances are you'd enjoy their company. But how did I raise them? Were they bottle or breast fed? Did they wear cloth or disposable diapers? Did they use a bouncy chair, or a walker? Did they sleep on their stomachs or did they sleep on their backs? Whatever decisions I made for my kids: with a LOT of faith and a little luck~ they all turned out beautifully! However, if I would compare my playbook with another mom's playbook, I'm sure the decisions along the way would be much different, but the end result would be the same: happy, stable kids.
Or, for this forum: happy, stable, basenjis. Debra, It is NOT for you to factually declare that the OP and/or the Rescue Organization created this "problem".
@DebraDownSouth:I am not even reading the other answers, so if repeat or contradicts, I don't know or care.
The problem here is you and the rescue who let you put another female in a home with a female you already KNOW wants to be the only female. Period.It is not for any of us to tell another basenji owner that crating is a "solution". That having basenjis sleep with, or without humans, is the IDEAL night time ritual. That giving them rawhide or peanut butter IS better. Raw diet or Kibble? We must all experiment, and then we have to individually choose the best course for our dogs and for our families. But whatever decision we make, the answer is not simply black or white, or for this forum… the answer is not simply black and white, red and white, brindle, trindle, or tri.
What we SHOULD be doing in a forum like this, is asking questions and giving positive suggestions based upon our personal experiences, so that others can learn from them. The beauty of this forum is when we can learn from each other, without fear of reprisals when our opinions don't agree. (Has anyone else noticed the lack of participation on this forum board? Is it because people aren't reading, or because they are afraid to post? )
I apologize to the OP for the long rant, but I posted back to YOU so that you had an idea of how similar our situations are. Lola has lived with us for 18 months, and Becca has been here for 10 months. When Becca joined our "pack", Lola had been here for 8 months and felt like she was the Madonna of the household. Because WE have worked together, and our family dynamics are constantly evolving- Lola and Becca ARE, for the most part, happy sisters. Like human sisters, they have their moments… but the moments are definitely easier to handle with time. I hope that you can find the right solution and balance within your family, too.
Peace, out.
Patty
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Patty, I had very similar thoughts to Debra about this thread and your post. If the treats you give instigate bullying in your household then if you plan to continue to give them then you should separate your dogs so that they do not have the opportunity to practice the behavior otherwise, you are letting them practice a behavior that one day could lead to a major fight if you or someone else in your household messes up and gives the wrong dog the treat first or isn't quick enough to head off the bad behavior. You don't have to use a crate to separate them as Debra said, you can use separate rooms, use baby gates to gate off space but if you are going to continue to give high value chewies to them, give them the privacy they need to stop practicing guarding behavior. Otherwise, stop giving them and risking the major fight that is brewing every time you allow that stress and tension to occur.
For an article on the dangers of rawhide, http://www.maverickpetpartners.com/the-dangers-of-rawhide/
I was also very surprised that the OP and the rescue organization chose to place this young female into a household where the older female has shown same sex aggression in the past. This seems to have been a recipe for disaster from the start. Has the male shown same sex aggression? Might it have been a better choice to try another young male instead of a female?
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I haven't read much of the other threads, but, here is my opinion and this may or may not help you. I had boy 1, whom was neutered due to health issues. Girl one came into household about and a half later, boxer came in (spayed, rescue) about four months later, girl 2 (she has a more active style of living and can run all day) came in (totally different line) about a year later. So at this time I have one neutered male 3 years approximately 1 is a year, boxer is 1 year and girl 2 puppy 12 weeks. Things went fine until first season between unspayed females. Things were tolerable for awhile. Girl 1 had a litter at 3 years, I didn't keep any puppies and things went back to okay between girls. Girl 2 had puppies following year and I kept 1 male, things were okay with girls as they both 'mothered' the male. Girl 1 had a litter following year, I decided to keep a female puppy and that is when things went from okay to bad. Fights escalated and girls 1 & 2 were trying to outdo each other where puppies were concerned. After the girls went into season (girls 1, 2 and puppy, with male in the house) things went to really, really bad. Since girl 1 was here first, and girl 1 would get along with girl 3, I decided to place girl 2 with my son. She is much happier.
Saying this, some girls just never get along with another female-at all. They want to be the only one in the house and that will never change. Before something detremental happens, I would either place the older female or give the rescue back. Personally, I would give the rescue back and learn to have to live with never having another female B in the house until she passes. She has only known you and your household for her whole life. The stress in your house must be very high, not only between the dogs, but to you too having to deal with this on a minute by minute day.
This is one of the hardest decisions you will have to make, but you have to do it for the health (mental and physical) of EVERYONE in the house.
I'm sorry this had to happen to you, good luck in your decision and let us know how it goes.
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Debra,
1::Perhaps you need to read this string tomorrow morning, when minds are fresh.2:;Why don't I give treats in crates? Well Debra, you didn't ask me that question, but let me give you the answer: crates don't work well for my girls.
3::And your thoughts on Rawhide? Well, you don't explain why you consider these treats that are sold everyday in the doggy treat aisle to be so horrible!?! You just imply that I'm giving them to my dogs to kill them? Perhaps you could have elaborated politely what your concerns are about rawhide, to educate me and others that are reading this string?4::I have four children that I'm fiercely proud of.
5::Or, for this forum: happy, stable, basenjis. Debra, It is NOT for you to factually declare that the OP and/or the Rescue Organization created this "problem".
It is not for any of us to tell another basenji owner that crating is a "solution". That having basenjis sleep with, or without humans, is the IDEAL night time ritual. That giving them rawhide or peanut butter IS better. Raw diet or Kibble? We must all experiment, and then we have to individually choose the best course for our dogs and for our families. But whatever decision we make, the answer is not simply black or white, or for this forum… the answer is not simply black and white, red and white, brindle, trindle, or tri.
PattyFirst, Patty I wasn't foggy when I read it.
Second I said crates OR separate. :::::Why not give them peace in separate rooms or crates or crate her til they are done. :::::
Third, I was brief on rawhides because I have posted on it adnauseum and really figured you had already read it. However, even if you didn't, you can put rawhide, dogs, dangers into google and get it pretty fast. It is not an OPINION that dogs die, end up impacted and have surgery due to them. Your dig about them on the supermarket shelf– so are cigarettes. So are many harmful things. Not being ILLEGAL to sell does not equate with good. But you knew that. However, will post tons of info at end.
Fourth, There is a huge difference between parenting styles and dangers. Your tirade shows an inability to separate FACTS from opinions, so let me be clear. I can unequivocally tell you that research PROVES breast feeding is healthier. But I wouldn't ever say a parent is bad because for whatever reasons they don't do it. You seem to confuse presenting people with FACTS with something else. Ditto on the rest. Research proves/disproves old things, we all do the best we can hopefully when raising kids. But I never got mad or threw a tantrum if someone offered me information that MIGHT help me be a better parent. I used my head to evaluate the value. You seem, again, to think that people simply having information/facts/research is an insult to you and your ways.
Fifth, yeah it is for me to declare that the rescue was WRONG to do this placement. As a long time rescue person with a boat load of experience with dog-on-dog aggressive breeds, it IS for me to say they were wrong because it is not only my opinion, but it was very important to me that the OP shift from labeling the dog the problem or bad one or whatever and realize that the HUMANS shoved this dog into a situation that they should have known was not likely to work; that the HUMANS created an environment where a dog who has proven not to like other females in the home is forced to live with one. You bet it is for me or anyone else who thinks it to say it. Blaming a dog for how it is instead of saying WOW I messed up and the rescue messed up with this placement helps the OP to look at things not in blaming the dog but in understanding who created it. And since you like throwing children into it, I feel the same way when some parent is out with a tired cranky toddler doing their nails and screaming at the child for misbehaving. TAKE THE CHILD THE HELL HOME AND LET IT SLEEP. Schedule your non-crisis outings for when the child is rested or you have help entertaining them.
And finally, it is also for me to say what I think when someone suggests things that are detrimental or dangerous. I am sorry if my concern for the dogs and the OP overrides any desire to make nice and agree with advice that is unlikely to be helpful, in fact add a new issue (another dog) to it, and followed by your own training methods that continue to keep your dogs in stress rather than just manage the whole situation.
MANY times I have posted opinions and had others disagree. Often others have thought of an angle I didn't see. Posting opinions in forums presents us with the opportunity to teach and to learn and to consider other options. Any time your need to post and have people agree so you don't get your panties in a wad is greater than actually helping the person asking for it, something is wrong.
Now, you want to discuss my advice and where it was wrong, please do so. But try to leave the tirades out of it.
And again, for the rawhide, I was not trying to be snarky with you. I really was simply trying to not continue to beat a dead horse I have beaten a dozen times here in this forum already and one which is easily found on your own.
:::: old post on it:
1. Pet Health Info
FROM: >>Seaside Animal Care was recently awarded the 1999 National Practice of Excellence Award from Veterinary Medical Publishing and an educational grant from Pfizer. We are one of just over 50 practices ever to receive this honor!<<WE DO NOT RECOMMEND GIVING YOUR PETS RAWHIDE CHEWS. They expand when wet and are the number one cause of intestinal obstruction at our hospital. They are poorly effective at "cleaning the teeth". Instead, we recommend chew-safe toys such as Nylabone? and Kong? products. Contact the hospital for additional information when selecting safe chew-toys for your loved one.<<
While I find it LUDICROUS that they first state they are harmless then say they have seen it ALL, this does indeed support that they are not uncommon :
2. >>From the
AAHA: American Animal Hospital Association
Miscellaneous Pet Care: Are raw hide chews safe?Rawhide chews are pretty harmless. The problems come when they swallow them whole. They either choke on them, or the rawhide balls up in the stomach and causes gastritis or blockage. We've seen it all. Moderation is the key. One every once in a while is OK, but they shouldn't be included as a regular toy or part of the diet. In addition it's usually best to supervise or at least be nearby when your pet is chewing on any toy. <<
3. >> Diet - Treats and Snacks (Vetinfo, Dr Mike)
It is interesting to me that a number of veterinarians I have spoken with do say that they have seen problems associated with these toys. Their experience differs from mine. I practice in a rural area and sometimes I think that I just don't have enough patients to see all the problems that vets who practice in more crowded areas do. <<4. OMG, they sell it yet their vets admit it is dangerous!!!
Acme Pet - Pet Health Questions Ask Acme Pet'sExpertsQ. I have a one year old mix JRT, she is a great dog. But the problem I have with her is that, whenever I give her a chewy like those basted sticks. I have to watch her because she will make it all soft, not bite a piece and eat it. She makes it soft and swallows half while she is still chewing the other end. She has almost choked on me twice. This happens with the square chewees too.
A. I would suggest you not give them to her anymore. Many dogs die of intestinal obstruction each year due to rawhide. Find something else, which is safer, to give her.<<
5. petcare
Okay, this is a petstore, not a vet but thought their concern worth noting!In addition, we don't carry rawhide chews in order to assure the safest play experience for your pet. Rawhide chews, when gobbled or eaten in large quantities, can cause choking or possible obstruction in dogs. <<
6. vet@dog - Holidays - Chocolate and other dangerous goodies
FROM:
Dr. Lucy L. Pinkston, D.V.M.Rawhide chews can lodge in the throat and cause choking, or a large piece may be swallowed, scraping and irritating the throat and esophagus on the way down. Once in the stomach or intestinal tract, a large piece of rawhide can also create a physical obstruction. An additional danger that is less widely known is the practice, in some countries, of using an arsenic-based preservative in the processing of rawhide toys. We recommend that, if you do purchase these products, stick to brands processed in the U.S. There has also been a recent FDA alert about the risk of Salmonella accociated with dog chew products made from pork or beef-derived materials: refer to the FDA advisory or call 1-888-INFO-FDA. See below (discussion on pigs' ears) for more details.<<
So the bottom line is, if it is SOMETIMES, even rarely, dangerous, and it isn't NECESSARY, why do it? Your choice, but lets have the facts to use to decide with.:::::::
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You might consider re-homing your older female; it sounds like, though she has been there longer, that she is the 'odd man out'. She might find happiness as an only dog in a new situation. I know the idea of rehoming any of your dogs, especially the older one, probably seems unthinkable, please consider it.
I agree with this. It isn't fair to keep dogs that obviously hate one another in the same household. Things will always be tense and none of the dogs, nor any humans in the household, ever truly be able to relax. This is unhealthy for all parties involved.
It would be wise to consider either rehoming the older dog into an only-dog household or rehome both of the younger ones and keep the older dog as your only pet. I have rehomed many dogs and it is never easy to let go. But once the dog is in it's new home and I see that is it happier it is easier to deal with emotionally.
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Can we stop making this about what I said, what you said and just answer the post! We've done this before and it gets us nowhere, we each have our own opinions.
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On the topic of neutering and whether it helps, I find this study a bit surprising:
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I have heard about this, particularly the aggressive component. It certainly is counter intuitive. I would guess that a dog neutered later in life would show less difference to an intact, but most of us would suspect "more aggressive" compared to one neutered earlier, so that is an interesting finding. I know with horses that trainability is very high in stallions, but so is aggression compared to geldings. My own anecdotal experience with dogs has been that with three neutered later than normal in life it doesn't appear to have changed their temperaments in that regard. My bitches that were neutered relatively early have been my least aggressive. Interesting topic, for sure.
I concur with those who say once fighting has become intrenched it is likely better to re home one of the offenders. I do think it is often possible to head this sort of thing off if you nip it in the bud, but once there has been a nasty, serious clash, the line is crossed and I doubt it will ever be possible to trust these girls together (and girls are usually worse than boys once they have made up their minds).
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See, that's the thing– early neutered animals I have found so much less aggression. And while I KNOW that the stats on dog bites and the very high rate with unneutered males has as much to do with who typically owns them as it does with their being unneutered, I still have always found hormones play a role. There are studies on bitches spayed at certain times in heat cycle and very increased aggression. But this one is perplexing. Will be interested to see more peer reviews on it and studies.
