He's Arriving On Saturday!

[tanza]

@SpoliedKai:

Thank you Maya, that is why I joined these forums and have spent hours reading topics.

I have a question for everyone though, people here seem to be so against buying a puppy form a breeder that's not registered with X Y or C just in case it is Fanconi (which I fully understand), but my question is what do you think should happen to those puppies that a breeder has that DO have it?

Should they be euthanized?

The answer to that is NO.

I mean, Kai may have it, he may not have it, what will happen to him if I say "nope..not going to risk getting him just in case he has it"?

He will just stay with the breeder until somebody else purchases him…

And that somebody else might not be able to give him the life my partner and myself can offer, lots of open space for him to play and exercise, access to the best vets in LA, that somebody might abuse him, not walk him, not play with him, in other words, NEGLECT HIM.

Even if he DOES have Fanconi, it does not mean he has any less right to be loved and cared for, and I for one am, going to love him regardless.

Of course that is your choice, however by doing so, you support that BYB breeder who is only in it for the money, period. The more people that walk away from these people, the more they will think about not breeding the next time or maybe at least getting out of Basenjis. Why spend good money supporting someone that has no interest in the dogs, who don't even care enough to breed responsibility, only that they are a "cash cow"… easy to see with this particular person who has so many breeds.

And it is not only Fanconi, with no test this pup (or any from this breeder) could have bad patellas, bad hips, autoimmune problems, and in the end cost you thousands of dollars to try and give that pup a good life... again, that breeder will not care....

Again, IMO you are only supporting a BYB to keep on breeding.. and this does even begin to address the issue of the temperament. Since you have never met the puppies or the sire/dam, you have no idea what their temperament is like.... and rasised in a kennel situation even more reason to be concerned. All you have is the breeder telling you... of course they are and have wonderful temperaments.... like they would tell you different?

[diff_eqs]

Just out of curiosity: What is considered a Back Yard Breeder? If I breed my Lana (after having all possible tests done and come out to be clear/negative/normal/good/etc and the same with the sire) because I want to keep her puppy to do lure coursing with, and find good homes with responsible owners for the rest of the pups, is that considered a BYB? I am not in it for money, I want to support the breed, especially here in Sacramento, where there are very few B's around?

[tanza]

@diff_eqs:

Just out of curiosity: What is considered a Back Yard Breeder? If I breed my Lana (after having all possible tests done and come out to be clear/negative/normal/good/etc) because I want to keep her puppy to do lure coursing with, and find good homes with responsible owners for the rest of the pups, is that considered a BYB?

If you bred her without testing, without having talked to other breeders, finding a mentor, without contracts on the puppies and not taking responsibility that you are and will be responsible for those pups no matter what for their lifetime… Not screening homes.... that is a BYB.

Obviously it would be good if you knew more about your girl and her background, but at least you put forth the effort to test her, talk to people, find a nice stud to bred her too (note here, since she came up not bred from Ryder, before going back to him, you might ask Terri to have a sperm count done), I would not consider you a BYB.

And in the Sac area, there are really quite a few Basenjis around the area. There is a breeder in Woodland and one in Vacaville. There are a number of pups that have been place around that area.

[SpoliedKai]

Tanza, it is my choice, but NEWSFLASH!!! If I don't buy him, somebody else will.

And trust me, if he does have Fanconi, I will bankrupt the breeder, I will prevent them from ever breeding puppies again, I will have so many lawsuits against them, their great grand kids will be paying off their legal bills, and since my partner is also a partner at a very prestigious law firm in LA..we don't have to worry about our legal bills.

And as for ground….see the below from their website:

Our babies come prespoiled with a microchip, health guarantee,health certificate from the vet,and their Medical record with the dates of all of their wormings and shots and the kind they were given and their Registration,some are ACA registered but most are AKC registered and all of them come with a full registration.

[diff_eqs]

@tanza:

If you bred her without testing, without having talked to other breeders, finding a mentor, without contracts on the puppies and not taking responsibility that you are and will be responsible for those pups no matter what for their lifetime… Not screening homes.... that is a BYB.

Obviously it would be good if you knew more about your girl and her background, but at least you put forth the effort to test her, talk to people, find a nice stud to bred her too (note here, since she came up not bred from Ryder, before going back to him, you might ask Terri to have a sperm count done), I would not consider you a BYB.

Thank you Pat. Just making sure. By the way, she was pregnant, the ultrasound showed two sacks, but then she absorbed them. Sperm count on Ryder was done, it was fine, I have the results somewhere. I did talk to Terri, and later we'll decide if we are going to try Ryder again or go with another stud that Terri suggests.

[renaultf1]

To the OP…They've already lied to you about fanconi testing, why would you believe anything on their website?

[diff_eqs]

@SpoliedKai:

And trust me, if he does have Fanconi, I will bankrupt the breeder, I will prevent them from ever breeding puppies again, I will have so many lawsuits against them, their great grand kids will be paying off their legal bills, and since my partner is also a partner at a very prestigious law firm in LA..we don't have to worry about our legal bills.

Haha… they might have deserved that even if Kai is Fanconi clear, just by being irresponsible with a large number of dogs/puppies

[diff_eqs]

@tanza:

And in the Sac area, there are really quite a few Basenjis around the area. There is a breeder in Woodland and one in Vacaville. There are a number of pups that have been place around that area.

I was not aware of that. I tried finding other Sac owners (maybe have a B playdate), but unsuccessfully… Either way, I want to keep Lana's daughter and some member of my extended family are so taken with her that they want a puppy from her too...

This is not my thread to discuss my dog(s), I was just curious... Thanks again Pat.

[SpoliedKai]

renaultf1, they told me they have no had any instances of Fanconi in their bloodline in the past 5 years.

Fact is, SOMEBODY is going to buy him, and I would rather it be myself, I'm not going to risk him going to a home where he might be abused.

[tanza]

@SpoliedKai:

Tanza, it is my choice, but NEWSFLASH!!! If I don't buy him, somebody else will.

And trust me, if he does have Fanconi, I will bankrupt the breeder, I will prevent them from ever breeding puppies again, I will have so many lawsuits against them, their great grand kids will be paying off their legal bills, and since my partner is also a partner at a very prestigious law firm in LA..we don't have to worry about our legal bills.

And as for ground….see the below from their website:

And of that, what exactly does the health guarantee cover? Have you seen it in writing? How long does it cover, does it spell out all the afflictions that your pup could get? All BYB claim health guarantees, however they are usually for 2wks or in the case of some BYB's that know about the late onset problems in Basenjis, it will say guaranteed for genetic problems up to 2yrs. Too bad that Fanconi and PRA (which I forget to list in my other email) are 3 to 5yrs for onset. And there are other eye problems, cataracts, excessive PPM, juvenile cataracts. So if you think that contract/guarantee is going to cover you, my suggestion is that you think again. I know many people that have tried to sue…. and in the end, they might be offered to return the puppy and get another one in its place... but are you really going to send him/her back?

And yes, maybe someone else will purchase that puppy, but at least it will not be you supporting them in making money.

[SpoliedKai]

@diff_eqs:

Haha… they might have deserved that even if Kai is Fanconi clear, just by being irresponsible with a large number of dogs/puppies

Agreed!

I have done some research on this breeder though, if they were very bad..there would be something online about them, I mean, I know how I am when I have a bad experience with a company, I bitch and complain about them non-stop online for a few days.

[diff_eqs]

@SpoliedKai:

Agreed!

I have done some research on this breeder though, if they were very bad..there would be something online about them, I mean, I know how I am when I have a bad experience with a company, I bitch and complain about them non-stop online for a few days.

People who buy from breeders like that are often not aware of the health problems that the specific breed might have. You say your partner did the research, but a lot of people would not even know where to start. Plus a lot of people who buy dogs/cats/whatever from "designer" breeders buy them for gifts for someone else, so the dog/cat/whatever is not their problem anymore, and the actual owner often does not know who the breeder is and what to do about it if the animal gets sick.

[tanza]

@SpoliedKai:

renaultf1, they told me they have no had any instances of Fanconi in their bloodline in the past 5 years.

Fact is, SOMEBODY is going to buy him, and I would rather it be myself, I'm not going to risk him going to a home where he might be abused.

Again, your choice… but in the end, anyone that buys a puppy from this type of breeder is just supporting them in making money, because they sure don't care about the buyers or the dogs.

As for telling you no Fanconi, if they do not test they do not know, like walking around with a blindfold on... And they very well might be right, he might only be a Carrier.. or Clear for that matter. The question is the ethics of the breeder, who IMO has none.

[tanza]

@SpoliedKai:

Agreed!

I have done some research on this breeder though, if they were very bad..there would be something online about them, I mean, I know how I am when I have a bad experience with a company, I bitch and complain about them non-stop online for a few days.

You might think so, however… if they provide what is in their contract, little as it might be and full fill their part of the agreement... then if you bad mouth them... they can turn around and sue you for slander or Defamation of Character

[nkjvcjs]

@SpoliedKai:

Tanza, it is my choice, but NEWSFLASH!!! If I don't buy him, somebody else will.

Maybe not.

Puppymills like this are known to dump stock into rescues or shelters when they can't sell them. Yes it is hard on those dogs, but it is the only way to prevent the 30, 50, 100 other offspring these puppymills might breed.

These are the purebreds that end up filling up shelters. Responsible breeders make sure their dogs don't end up in shelters. Puppymills and BYBs don't.
By buying from them, you encourage them to produce more, and more untested dogs, without the benefit of the breed, the buyers or the dogs themselves in mind.

If you can give a good home to a dog that may have fanconi, and you are not concerned with showing, or another sport, please, please consider adopting a basenji. If you are sure you only want a puppy, buy from a responsible breeder, who will take responsibility for the puppy for the rest of his life.

Please read this: http://blacksheepcardigans.com/ruff/?p=3452

-Nicole

[lvoss]

@SpoliedKai:

Tanza, it is my choice, but NEWSFLASH!!! If I don't buy him, somebody else will.

Maybe but maybe not. Rescue has gotten several puppies and at times entire litters and parents from these types of breeders when they find that their buyers are educated enough to walk away from a sale when it is clear that what should be MINIMUM care is not provided.

It is your choice but by supporting breeders like these you are saying you don't care about health and that you support for profit breeders who do not care about the breed nor the puppies they produce.

5 years isn't very long and with Fanconi being late onset a breeder can easily breed 5 years and make the claim they have never had a sick dog. It also does not mean they have not produced one, only that they do not know about it.

Buyer Beware and if you choose to stick head in the sand then you better be willing to fork over the cash to pay for that choice if it turns out badly and take responsibility for that choice.

[Tayda_Lenny]

I have been following this thread and I wanted to chime in as someone who has a basenji with Fanconi. She was bred before the marker test was available and was just diagnosed about a year and a half ago. I love her to pieces and she is my dog and I will do whatever it takes to keep her healthy for as long as possible. But I must say, if I had the choice 4 years ago to get a pup from a breeder that tested and knew that their puppy was DEFINITELY clear of Fanconi vs. a breeder that chose not to do an easy test and therefore their pup may or may not have it, I definitely would have chosen to support the breeder that was doing the responsible thing by testing. It's not that the dog is any more or less loveable - as they are all loveable - it's more a matter of choosing which breeder to support - do I support the breeder that is helping to rid basenjis of this awful disease, or do I support the breeder that doesn't care about the health of their basenjis? Now that there is a test available, there is no reason for there ever to be another dog with fanconi. ever. And if there is a pup with fanconi, it is purely because the breeder was not being responsible - and that is not a breeder that I want to support.

And just to give you a "day in the life" of a fanconi basenji. Tayda takes 18-20 pills per day. every day. Depending on the day it could be more or less. 10 of them have to be given whole so I hide them in cream cheese, pry open her mouth and wipe them on the roof of her mouth. Sometimes she swallows them, and sometimes she spits them out and I have to keep trying until she swallows them. The rest of the pills I crush in her food and she usually eats them. We go to the vet every 6 months or so to get her bloodwork checked and depending on those results her pills are adjusted. She drinks probably a gallon of water a day and therefore has to pee all the time. She has not slept through the night in about 6 months - which means I have not slept t through the night in about 6 months. I have another basenji, Lenny, who is Fanconi clear. He is very very bonded to Tayda and I worry about how he is going to take it when/if she passes before he does.

Like I said, I love my dogs and they are mine forever. I never for one second regretted getting her - but I have to say - it really sucks sometimes…. lots of ups and downs and nerves when going to the vet and waiting for results.

I can tell you are already attached to the pup that you plan to get - but I really hope you take some of this to heart.....

In other news - I'm moving to Sacramento in 4 weeks! Diffeq - I see you are from SAC! Maybe we can have a play date! It seems there are others in the area also!

[Kananga]

@tanza:

You might think so, however… if they provide what is in their contract, little as it might be and full fill their part of the agreement... then if you bad mouth them... they can turn around and sue you for slander or Defamation of Character

Defamation only comes into play if what is said is claimed to be untrue. If someone bought a dog from a breeder, the breeder claimed the dog was not an affected dog and it turned out to be the opposite, the person who bought the dog could legally state that they were lied to (assuming they have proof to show that was the case). It's not defamation if it's true, regardless of contracts.

Actually, if you want to go the extra mile you can wire the funds instead of paying by cash or check. In the event that you are defrauded, the individual accepting the wire (presumably the one who committed the said fraud) automatically gets shifted into federal criminal charges since it was done by wire (wire fraud gets a lot more attention from federal authorities). It's actually what I did since I hate writing out checks. Granted I wasn't defrauded, I knew if I was lied to I would have a much firmer leg to stand on.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1343.html

Just a thought, anyone who knows/understands the law and is intentionally lying will avoid any wire transaction.

[SpoliedKai]

Tayda, trust me I have taken all this to heart.

But everyone keeps saying not to buy from BYB, yet I have yet to see someone mention an organization that people can go to, to report these BYB that breed B's with Fanconi, does one exist? And if not, why not?!

I mean, there's ripoffreport.com I guess…any others?

[SpoliedKai]

I've found a relative of Kai's… on this forum!

bellabasenji also has a B from the breeder we are getting Kai from:D

http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?t=5116&page=2