@eeeefarm said in Crate Training Struggles:
What about something like this?
A cabin hook on a spring ? yes, that could well do the trick. I will google one forthwith - thank you !
Alone training
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It may be a bit expensive to get one in Europe but you may want to get a Manners Minder, http://www.askdryin.com/manners_minder/, so you can reward him remotely so he doesn't see you come into the room. I don't know the range but you may even be able to use it with you just outside the apartment so you can reward him as you are actually leaving.
Also, when you are putting him in the room, do you give him something like a Kong that takes a while to get the treats out? I found with Nicky's separation anxiety the big tantrum was really for us to hear so if he was distracted while we left he got far less worked up when he realized we were gone.
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It may be a bit expensive to get one in Europe but you may want to get a Manners Minder, http://www.askdryin.com/manners_minder/, so you can reward him remotely so he doesn't see you come into the room. I don't know the range but you may even be able to use it with you just outside the apartment so you can reward him as you are actually leaving.
OMG, that thing looks awesome…my next purchase for my kids :D:D.
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Otis will stay in his crate for as long as three or so hours, but I am a stay at home mom, so this is not daily, but it happens that I am gone for that long. Several people have their dogs crated while they are at work, i.e 8+ hours..
I like that gadget as well….hmmm might have to look into one of those...one day.
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I am aware of the Manners Minder. Sadly norway has a 25% customs tax on anything over 200NOK. So the product would cost me 25% more, and then there is shipping. The end result would almost be 2x the price.
There are several videos of it in use on YouTube. Most dogs seemed scarred of it. LOL.
But yeah, looks like a nice gadget, but sadly out of my reach.
But I have to question the usefulness of it. I would rather he know I am the one rewarding him. And god knows what happens when I am not home! What if it happened to pop out a treat as he was chewing something he shouldn't! And then he thinks if he chews this, a treat will come! ….or if he is howling when I am not home...suddenly he thinks howling is a good thing.
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Sounds like you're having a hard time. I must admit my first thought was that i wouldn't keep buying him a new bed, as Petra says let him use his ripped one if there's anything left of it
If nor maybe use newspaper or something. You must be such a good daddy he doesn't want you to leave him;) -
But I have to question the usefulness of it. I would rather he know I am the one rewarding him. And god knows what happens when I am not home! What if it happened to pop out a treat as he was chewing something he shouldn't! And then he thinks if he chews this, a treat will come! ….or if he is howling when I am not home...suddenly he thinks howling is a good thing.
The problem with you delivering the treat when you are trying to reinforce calm behavior when you are not there is that then you are there so you are reinforcing "when I am here good things happen" instead "when I am not here good things still happen". The issues of not rewarding bad behavior comes down to management, you should not be leaving him in a room or area where he has access to things he shouldn't be doing when unsupervised. As for the howling, I would not be using it to just dispense treats randomly but instead as a way of reinforcing at a distance and slowly increasing the distance.
Going back to square one crate training may be the best solution for you. 3-4 hours in a crate should be fine and the crate can be large, it doesn't have to be small. Mine mostly sleep when we aren't around anyway. Heck, they sleep a whole lot when we are around.
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Lvoss has great advice regarding square one crate training.
Regarding the use of medication…you have to stop the destructive behavior now. It has been going on too long already. If you do not stop it by whatever means are available to you, you will wind up with a neurotic dog with many, many issues. He is old enough to be by himself for a while. Thus far, I have seen post after post by you describing a dog who is running your life and who can't control himself even at the dog park. You are the human. You are supposed to be running the show.
If it takes medication to get him over the first obstacle, use it. You've already tried naturopathy. Get out the big guns before your dog is completely out of control.
That is my advice. Take it or leave it, but you have to live with the result.
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lol…nerdy...it seems that we're in the same boat...
I believe Kairoe is on his third dog bed; all beds were all left in his crate. One was left in out of curiosity, the second was left in by mistake and the third was left in because we felt he could be trusted, seeing as he did not touch the bed the day before...we now know that he is a destructive in-crate-basenji-PERIOD. Are we frustrated? not so much! Expensive? It can be but now we look out for sales on doggy beds! lol.
We can understand what you're going through. Clarisse and I would get into fights because 'someone has to be with the dog at all times.' We did not go to the movies, the mall, dinner dates...[etc]….However, months have gone by and we don't fight anymore...
We decided to go back to square one and fix everything that we 'thought' was good crate training. We left him treats, we left him tired after a walk, we made sure he eliminated prior to leaving and we would let him go into his crate on his own cognition. We tried everything!
Four months have gone by and in that time...
Kairoe had shredded another bed and numerous play toys, because we thought he could be trusted, seeing as he did not touch his bed or toys the day before. The bugger even chewed up his plastic crate pad into three pieces! Funny, how you can't buy another replacement pad!
SOLUTION:
We now leave him with no bedding except for a ragged blanket that he's been shredding since day one. It seems he is shredding the blanket even less.
Kairoe started to eliminate and vomit in his crate
SOLUTION:
Understanding that our dog will eliminate at least two to three times and mark a spot for at least 10 seconds during his first walk of the day helps!
Ensuring that he eats at LEAST an hour before we leave. This stopped him from vomiting due to his axiety.
Leave him in his urine or feces and then following up by making his crate space smaller. This one really concerned us as we always wanted his space to be a happy place for him, but after consulting with our trainer she advised us that he'll be in it if we're gone anyways. Suffice it to say it only took him a couple of times to understand to not eliminate in his crate and by making his crate space smaller ensured that he would not. We made made his space larger at least once but then he eliminated in it, so we reverted back to a smaller space. WE MADE SURE TO NEVER EVER PUNISH HIM FOR ELIMINATING IN HIS CRATE. Nor, did we coddle him or felt bad. We didn't acknowledge what he did but just cleaned up the mess. We're glad that we bought the oversized crate with extra divider!
Other tips...
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when Kairoe begins to lay or play on our bed or couches without permission we immediately tell him to 'get off' and keep him off all furniture for a few days. He will search for a spot on the carpet or floor to rest, but as soon as we see him nod off, we tell him to go to his crate and sleep. He does! We struggle with this one from time to time because we enjoy having him with us when we're chillin' or sleeping, but we know how benfecial it is for his training and for the long run.
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always give him treats when he goes into his crate on his own cognition or when he falls asleep - ALWAYS. He now goes in his crate as soon as he hears the treat package or wakes up to something nice!
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leave a note on your door for your neighbours, just to let them know that the dying dog sounds are from a basenji that is currently being crate trained. This came in handy as our neighbours have all mentioned something about reading the sign, have mentioned that they cannot hear the dog from their unit and the ones that can, have mentioned that Kairoe will only whine for about 10 minutes and then it's quiet!
Kairoe is now a 13 months old and we're still working on his crate training, we're still making mistakes but we're getting better. We even trained ourselves to not feel so guilty when we need to leave him, but we feel more secure that he is safe in his crate, free from anything dangerous. The best thing that happens is that when we do get home, our dog seems happier than hell to see us and becomes more attentive to us!
We are now leaving him loose in the apartment for short bursts no longer than 30 minutes and so far so good. He doesn't destroy anything but stays at the door waiting for us, but he's a Basenji and a smart one too, so we know that once he figures out that we're not coming back he'll find something to chew on. BUT, we're in it for the long run. It might take years or it might be never, we're his humans and we'll find ways to outsmart him anyways!
Hope some of the tips will help.
Emm
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I don't have any tips for you as far as training goes, but I will offer a tip for bedding. When I first brought Callie home, she would shred anything I left in her crate. I took large old sheets & come them into smaller pieces because I always wanted her to have something soft to lay on, but by using old sheets cut into smaller sections, they lasted a bit longer and I wasn't upset when I had to throw them out.
Anytime I go to a Target or Wal-Mart, I look for cheap fleece throw blankets (they often have them for less than $5). You can also go to fabric stores and buy the small pieces of fleece leftover from the ends of bolts for very cheap. Fleece does not fray when it rips, and I've heard its safer than other fabrics if they swallow any. For whatever reason, Callie does not tear up fleece like she does other materials. Its a cheap, soft way to replace torn bedding.
I no longer even try to buy dog beds. Between Lola, Callie & the cat, Spooky, they're just gonna get ruined. The fleece seems to last much longer (current fleece has been around for 10 months now with almost no damage). -
@-Clar|Emm|:
Leave him in his urine or feces and then following up by making his crate space smaller. This one really concerned us as we always wanted his space to be a happy place for him, but after consulting with our trainer she advised us that he'll be in it if we're gone anyways. Suffice it to say it only took him a couple of times to understand to not eliminate in his crate and by making his crate space smaller ensured that he would not. We made made his space larger at least once but then he eliminated in it, so we reverted back to a smaller space. WE MADE SURE TO NEVER EVER PUNISH HIM FOR ELIMINATING IN HIS CRATE. Nor, did we coddle him or felt bad. We didn't acknowledge what he did but just cleaned up the mess. We're glad that we bought the oversized crate with extra divider!
This is something I have been thinking about a lot the past weeks, is the size of his crate. I have read and been told by many, that the crate shouldn't be too big. It should be just enough space so the dog can turn around.
I have a medium sized wire crate that is 765461 cm, it's big enough for him to lay down straight (but not stretched out), and when he curls up he only takes up around 1/3 of the space.As you can see in the pictures.
I might be asking much, but could you show me a picture with him in his crate, so I can see just how much space you are giving? Or if you have the measurements?
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The crate size looks adequate to me. I ditto the comments on the blankets - fleece is good not only because it doesnt' fray but because it's also warm and we all know basenjis like warmth. When I brought my last basenji home, my breeder suggested paper towels in the crate - good for the shredding urge and not much problem if he eats any of it.
However, the bigger issue still is the bahavior of being alone. I agree with AJ - you sort of have to start from step 1 again. When you disappear for a period, or whenever you bring him out of the crate, stand there and wait until he sits and calms himself then give a special treat. If I remember correctly he's a youngster yet so he has a lot of pent-up energy. But you have to be the one in control that lets that energy out.
Separation anxiety is a tough obstacle to work through. -
I think the post by Emm should be made into a sticky! It is full of great info, and shows how sometimes if you really want to change a behavior you have to stick to your plan, and do things you don't really want to do…but it works if you are consistant about it.
Sometimes you do everything you can to make the crate a great place, and the dog still hates it...and if you must use the crate to protect the dog and your house, you have to resort to methods that just make the dog (and you) tough it out.
Great job Emm, Clarr and Kai
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Gizmo doesn't hate his crate. I don't know where people are getting this from. He happily goes in it, sleeps in it, even goes in at command.
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Gizmo doesn't hate his crate. I don't know where people are getting this from. He happily goes in it, sleeps in it, even goes in at command.
Well, then why not put him in his crate so you can leave the house?
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I have mentioned this before.
He chews at the bars, and gets his jaw stuck between them, then screams in pain. I don't want to come home to a dog with a broken jaw.
The whole issue is getting past his separation anxiety. All professionals advise against having a dog with separation anxiety left in a crate. It's like locking a person with claustrophobia in a box, you would panic and hurt yourself doing whatever you can to get out…even if it means spilling some blood. And resulting in pushing that person deeper into anxiety.
I am however trying to save up some money for a plastic crate.
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If he has anxiety attacks when you leave him in the crate then it isn't accurate to say that he is fine with his crate.
How does he do in the crate when you are there but the door is closed so his freedom to come and go is removed?
Does the anxiety start when you leave you room or only when you leave the house?
How are you currently using the crate?
There is a good video called Crate Games that goes through a process of getting the dog enjoy staying in the crate even with distance, duration, and distraction.
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I have mentioned this before.
He chews at the bars, and gets his jaw stuck between them, then screams in pain. I don't want to come home to a dog with a broken jaw.
The whole issue is getting past his separation anxiety. All professionals advise against having a dog with separation anxiety left in a crate. It's like locking a person with claustrophobia in a box, you would panic and hurt yourself doing whatever you can to get out…even if it means spilling some blood. And resulting in pushing that person deeper into anxiety.
I am however trying to save up some money for a plastic crate.
I agree with you on this.. Please don't lock him up in his crate if he will panic..
Can't you go to a professional behaviorist? Or maybe find a dog sitter, so you can do your things and Gizmo doesn't have to be alone?It took a loooooong time with Tillo before he could be alone without all the crying.. Even if I brought him to my mom.. he would know that I would leave him and he would whine and be nervous. He is doing ok now for short periods (yes.. after two years of not really being able to do things without finding a sitter first).
Now that we have Lycia he's even doing better.. last week I left them alone for 2 hours.. wow! They won't go to sleep.. they will walk around in the house.. laying for 5 min.. looking at the door.. Lycia whines every 5 to 10 minutes.. but they are ok.I hope that if you give Gizmo some time, he will partly grow out of it.. And if I were you I would try to find someone who can help me with this
You could try this… but I don't know if Gizmo is very food motivated..
I have used a (very well sealed) cookie box. Put it on the ground when you're about to leave.. leave the house for a minute.. come back and give him a treat out of the box. (he will probably still be staring at it..)
You can expand those minutes.. Gizmo will (hopefully) know that if you put the box down, you are about to leave.. but he also knows that you will return to give him a treat from the box..Just an idea... I hope you will find a good solution for you and Gizmo!
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I have mentioned this before.
He chews at the bars, and gets his jaw stuck between them, then screams in pain. I don't want to come home to a dog with a broken jaw.
The whole issue is getting past his separation anxiety. All professionals advise against having a dog with separation anxiety left in a crate. It's like locking a person with claustrophobia in a box, you would panic and hurt yourself doing whatever you can to get out…even if it means spilling some blood. And resulting in pushing that person deeper into anxiety.
I am however trying to save up some money for a plastic crate.
Okay, I was confused because you said that he doesn't hate his crate. This is arguing semantics..he doesn't hate his crate, he hates it when you close the door. You did mention that you tried to watch a movie while he was in his crate, and he raised holy hell…right?
There is a difference between a dog that has true separation anxiety, and a dog that correctly (or erroneously) thinks that pitching a giant temper tantrum will make their human come back. If it is true separation anxiety (or dog claustrophobia) you will need to start with drugs, to be able to get past the anxiety to train him. And I am not talking about a sedative..you need an anti-anxiety drug. You can't train a dog that is in a state of panic. It will not be forever, just long enough to settle him so he can start realizing the world doesn't come to an end when the crate door is shut.
If it is a temper tantrum, you have to retrain him by making it clear to him that screaming will NOT make you appear..ever....
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Nerdy…
Kairoe is pretty much like Gizmo, in sense that he does not hate his crate when the door is open. He too, will readily go into his crate when we take away his den bed or eliminate his urge from sleeping on the carpet by the door. He then has no other option but to go in his crate when he wants to rest. However, once the door is closed he'll whine a lil bit - especially when we're sitting next to it. When we leave and go to another room and we're out of sight, then that's another issue that we're working on, but we've come a long way, and he whines for about 5 minutes until he figures out that he has no other option than to sleep. We must add that we gave him a cue phrase of 'go to sleep' when he begins digging or whining - this works, but only when it's towards the end of the night or if he's in his car crate and on a long drive.
Regarding the chewing on the bars. He has caught his jaw on the bars more than once but after those ordeals he's been a bit smarter and will only chew the areas where he knows he can't get caught. Perhaps it's a fear that you may have to work on? Hell, the fear of coming home to Kiaroe choking on a crate toy still freaks us out but we're smarter now and have learned that he cannot get hurt if there's nothing in there!
If this helps, maybe sit with him for at least an hour with the crate door closed and not say a word, no corrections - nothing. And then take an hour with treats and work with his movement in the crate, only correcting and treating what you like - no pawing the door, no nosing the door and keeping his paws inside at all times. If he bites a bar correct. Once he lets go and with a cue of 'leave it' - give him a treat. Another thing that we do is use the latch sound as a cue. His crate has two latches and once we reach for them he'll whine to get out. He can be quiet right before, but once he sees us go for them he'll whine. What we do is wait for him to be quiet and then open one latch, the other latch does not get open until he is totally quiet. I worked with him for two hours in his car crate until he actually got this. He is in a sit stay position for the whole time and cannot come out of the crate until we give him the command. This was helpful as he used to bolt out of his crate once the door was opened and would run off in a parking lot!
The size of your crate is perfect. Kairoe's crate is probably 2 inches smaller in length wise but 2 inches higher in height. Does Gizmo eliminate in his crate or just in the room? If he does eliminate in the crate then take away his bedding and leave him for a few hours and see what he does. If you decide to leave the bedding then be warned that he may destroy it. We too use the fleece blanket, and it's the only bedding he gets when we leave him in his crate alone, otherwise upon our return, his normal bedding is replaced.
What we're learning about all this is our fear. The fear of him being caught in bars, but knowing after his ordeal he does not go for those areas and knowing that we worked with him all those times to keep paws in and nose off provides that added security that he is safe....still freaking out for 15 minutes at a time, but safe...you should take a deep breath, ensure his crate is safety proofed and plan a night out for at least a few hours....close the crate and leave...you may come back to a mess here and there, but after you get the hang of it and once Gizmo gets the hang of it, you'd be thoroughly surprised how smart our B's actually are!
Clar will post the pics of his crate - I have to go to work...
Cheers,
Emm & Clar
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Persistence, consisitency & patience are key. Callie was crate trained when she came home, but she tested me to see if I knew it. Every time I put her in the crate, she would scream & try to get out frantically. Whenever I left the house, I could hear her screaming as I walked away. It lasted about 5 minutes until she was sure I was gone, then she would settle down and be fine.
She slowly started to realize it didn't do any good, so she would stay quiet unless I took more than 30 seconds to get out of the door. As long as she had an audience, she put on the show, acting like being in the crate was killing her.
Lola also was not very keen on going in the crate, and I had to catch them both & put them in the crate myself every time I wanted to leave the house.
I started using high value treats (cheese) to get Callie & Lola in the crate. At first, I would catch them, put them in the crate & give them treats & leave.
As time went on, I played games with them when I wasn't actually leaving. Treat them for coming close to the crate, then for going in the crate, then for going in & sitting, etc. Now whenever they hear me pull out cheese, they both run & sit in the crate & wait for their treats without me even giving them the "go to crate" command.
Since I can't actually see Gizmo, I have no way of knowing if he's actually that upset, or if its just a show he's putting on to let you know he's unhappy with the situation. Callie had me convinced a few times that she really would hurt herself, but if I ignored it, she would stop. She was like this in her car crate for a while as well, but by refusing to acknowledge her antics, she quickly settled down here as well. Now I have no crating problems.
I'm not saying this is the case with Gizmo, I'm just saying maybe it is. He could be doing this for the reaction. You seem very concerned (and rightly so) about his well being. Maybe he's playing off of your fears & convincing you you can't leave him. Something to consider. They are very cunning.
