Tri fur color

[AJs Human]

I saw a discussion on the forums somewhere about recessive blacks. I can't find it now or I would link to it. I believe the question on the discussion had to do with some red bleed-through on the recessive black's coat during coat transition times.

If I remember it correctly, the questioner asked whether it was "normal" for a recessive black to look "muddy" at times. There was no mention of the animal having a poor coat. Rather, again, if I remember correctly, the individual was seemingly congratulated on having a rare recessive black. And it was indicated that during transition, the coat of a recessive black will occasionally appear muddy, as Buddy's coat does right now. His coat looks pretty good to me in all the other photos I've seen of him.

[nobarkus]

He has lost hair on the back of his neck from the nylon collar. I'm going to change from a nylon harness anyway. That hair is a fuzzy light tan. The red and white I had did have coat changes. When I first got him he was not in the best health and his coat was a very light red with some light patches. At 2-1/2 he looked old. Then I really changed his diet and with the sun it turned a solid dark red/orange. Even the black and white I had would at times seem the coat had a very slight brownish tint to it and sometimes would be just a dark black. Depending on the health and time of year.

[khanis]

Yes, diet will affect hair… on both people and dogs.
I see tan coming through this dogs black on his rear legs.
I don't see how the harness would rub back there as well.
I assume this is the dog in your avatar?
It looks to me that this dog DOES have melon pips, does he not?
If he has pips, he cannot be a recessive black, so I am not sure why that would be suggested.
If he were a recessive tri, he would have looked like a 'normal' tri as a youngster. As they age, the ten gets bleed through [through the black] on the legs, around the ears, and throughout the entire back.

I see no reason to suspect this dog is either a recessive tri or recessive black. I believe he is a tri that doesn't have the best of coats. I am sure the coat could change with either a new diet, climate control, or the Fur-minator.

I think you are taking what I am saying personal about your dog. Don't… I am just telling you what I see in this dog. I have been around basenjis my entire life... and showing them for 35 years. I believe I have quite the knowledge base in the breed and am giving you my opinion based on that knowledge. If you don't feel I am right, that is quite all right with me. I am a big girl and don't mind people not in agreeance with me.

I could look through all posts, but that would be more time than I really have... so do you mind sharing what is pedigree is, if you have it?

[AJs Human]

I didn't mean to sound argumentative, Ms. Kathy. I was just trying to ask whether there were recessive tris and whether it could be a remote possibility. I think you just answered my first question and I appreciate that.

[Patty]

Dan - previous postings seems to have gone from the subject slightly.

Change the harness, and the diet, - I'm sure these would make a difference whatever the quality of his colour. Does that matter after all? He is the same beloved basenji whatever.

Having not seen him in the flesh, I can't comment on the various previous posts and I'm not going to trade experience as in my opinion we can all learn from each other whether novice or experienced! (I'm not meaning to be offensive here - only concerned with your worry)

[renaultf1]

@nobarkus:

He has lost hair on the back of his neck from the nylon collar. I'm going to change from a nylon harness anyway. That hair is a fuzzy light tan. The red and white I had did have coat changes. When I first got him he was not in the best health and his coat was a very light red with some light patches. At 2-1/2 he looked old. Then I really changed his diet and with the sun it turned a solid dark red/orange. Even the black and white I had would at times seem the coat had a very slight brownish tint to it and sometimes would be just a dark black. Depending on the health and time of year.

I've seen some blacks & whites (that are brindle - Liyah's brother for instance) that look brownish in certain light. And also in that certain light you can see their stripes. I don't think I've seen that kind of colouring on b&w that don't have the brindle - they always look very black to me as their undercoat is black.

[renaultf1]

Dan - did it show up more after you changed him to raw? Just curious.

[khanis]

@renaultf1:

I've seen some blacks & whites (that are brindle - Liyah's brothers for instance) that look brownish in certain light. And also in that certain light you can see their stripes. I don't think I've seen that kind of colouring on b&w that don't have the brindle - they always look very black to me as their undercoat is black.

I assume you are talking about Smoky?
I am not sure what you saw on him.. but I did have my hands on him at the national. this dog is as black as black can be… yes he is brindle under the black... but black stripes on a black dog are not visible. He has no outward appearance of having a red hue to his coat.
I have a bitch that has this, and we have no idea where it came from, as she has no brindle in her pedgiree. She is on premium foods and it has been that way since a pup and she is now two years of age.

A "regular" brindle has a different coloration in the ears. Smoky didn't have that in September when I messed with him. It is now known that he is brindle only because he produced brindles [and he has a pure-for-brindle dam] when bred to a red bitch. Smoky is still jet black, just black with black stripes that we can't see :eek: Nothing wrong with this… heck, I plan on using him as a stud dog soon!

AJ--I didnt' think you were being argumentative. No one answered your question about recessives... and it was a good suggestion. The reason I say it isn't possible was because of other charatceristics of those colors. And the fact that this dog has tan throughout his coat, not just in the harness area. There were too many pictures that show the tan bleeding through... the pictures were fine.

[nobarkus]

@Patty:

Dan - previous postings seems to have gone from the subject slightly.

Change the harness, and the diet, - I'm sure these would make a difference whatever the quality of his colour. Does that matter after all? He is the same beloved basenji whatever.

Having not seen him in the flesh, I can't comment on the various previous posts and I'm not going to trade experience as in my opinion we can all learn from each other whether novice or experienced! (I'm not meaning to be offensive here - only concerned with your worry)

Thank you Patty and everybody for your input. On close inspection the harness was rubbing the 2 distinct lines on the sides. I think I had it too tight and so I have loosened it a bit. I am getting a new/different material anyway and will brush him more than I have been. And yes there are some spots that are light but not from the harness and so that light coloring is coming through on his sides only. If the dog is in good health, the coat is not dry, damaged or the fur is falling out then it's a good coat no matter the natural color.

[ibi_n_sane]

just found the topic , a bit late I guess.
well anyway I must admid that the first thing I thought about were that these spots are a bit boldy, it seems youc an see the skin underneeth, so I think it is from the harness as well.
Let us know in a couple of weeks, when you have a new harness as then we will know

[renaultf1]

@khanis:

I assume you are talking about Smoky?

Actually I was really talking about Smoky's brother Oreo. You can see his black stripes in certain light.

[nobarkus]

@renaultf1:

Dan - did it show up more after you changed him to raw? Just curious.

He's actually on a partial raw. I still mix in some dry (Spots Stew brand), a little canned pumpkin, bake chicken breast and some salmon oil. Kathy's suggestion about the climate may have validity as it seems to have have shown up more now that it's colder. The thing is he's a rescue and who knows who the parents are. Karen at Basenji Rescue said she has an idea who the breeder may be. He still has his dew claws so I don't know if any breeders leave those on do they?

[khanis]

@nobarkus:

Kathy's suggestion about the climate may have validity as it seems to have have shown up more now that it's colder.

He still has his dew claws so I don't know if any breeders leave those on do they?

The climate is beyoind a valid point.
I know breeders [and I will use this term loosely, because they do breed, but I consider them a puppy mill] that keep their "dog room" at 80* all year round. Before they started doing this… their dogs came from lines that were notorious for rough, prickly, tan [meaning super light red] coats with distinct guardhairs. They began doing this and during the winter, their dogs would not "blow coat" as those that spend a great deal of time outdoors. This is because the body has no reason to gain that undercoat because the dog is so warm all year long.
If they were in and out of the house… and the house being a normal 72* and winter weather in Oregon [anywhere from 20s to 50s] the dogs would get a dense undercoat.
Since these dogs virtually live in the "dog room" except for potty breaks, they body doesn't turn on the "we need to grow a thick coat to keep warm" and they keep the shorter, more correct coats.

I think everyone was looking at different pictures than I did. I never saw any skin on the dog… just tan undercoat throghout the flanks and rear legs.

Yes, pumpkin is said to help the dogs coat, as well as firm up stools. It also helps the orangey-red in the chestnut color become a brighter orange.

About the dewclaws... it is customary (basically being the norm in the basenji breed) in the US to remove them. I recently saw pictures of a gal that had her first litter in Cali and she left them on. When I asked her about it, she told me "well, they were born with them."
I, personally, do not like to see them and have seen them tear [not on a basenji] on the lure field. So removing them is two-fold for me.

I did check with Pam and she said that Oregon does not have a red hue at all. So, not sure what you were seeing, just bad lighting I'd guesstimate.

[lvoss]

@khanis:

I certainly have no idea how you saw black stripes on a black coat. I do not believe it is possible. His ears were also 'normal' looking for a black. It will be interesting when he is used if he also is a brindled black dog.

I have a litter with two black and whites that may carry brindle. In strong sunlight, I can see stripes on the boy. He will not be bred so we will never know for sure but I strongly believe he carries brindle. My black cat Spot also had black on black stripes though you could only see the stripes in the summer in good sun.

[nobarkus]

Interesting feed back on this, thanks everyone! He has a really thick coat on top and his sides are a bit thin. He does fine out in the cold.

[renaultf1]

@khanis:

I did check with Pam and she said that Oregon does not have a red hue at all. So, not sure what you were seeing, just bad lighting I'd guesstimate.

I just want to clear up one thing. I DID NOT say that Oreo had a red hue. I said he looked brownish in a certain light and I could see stripes. There are many shades of brown and brown does not automatically = red hue. (For example: Chestnut brown and blackish/brown - blackish/brown was what I saw at the moment I was thinking of.) I wasn't saying he had a red undercoat like the pictures from Dan, he has a black undercoat and it takes a specific light to see the stripes.

Yes, you are most likely right - weird lighting, he could have also just been dusty. I was simply agreeing with the original poster, Dan, when he said he had seen their b&w look brownish.

It isn't unusual to see black (in general on anything) look like other colours depending on lighting - many times it looks blue.