For Sale: Basenji pups For Sale in Nampa ID

[DebraDownSouth]

I agree we need to be civil. Sorry too Fran.

[cpeck1960]

Amen Fran,,,,,Amen Merry Xmas and Happy New Year to you all

[JoT]

Although this thread is dying or dead … since my post two days ago seemed to spark a bit of furor, I would like to make a brief comment and then I will be silent.

First, I laughed out loud at the apt description of this exchange as feeling like Linda Blair from the Exorcist. After reading the pages of posts, my head is spinning too.
Wow, things got really twisted.

To be fair, for those who pointed out that it would have been better for me to limit my post to the facts and information without the confrontational context, I do agree.
As can happen, the information (about Manu's background) seems to have been lost in my delivery (words of frustration) and in the subsequent redirection to focus on the messenger (me).

I wrote my original note out of my annoyance at comments on other lists of which some of you do not see. That left some of you angry about the tone of my words.
I read the statement that "As far as I know [Manu] is no more of an expert then XXX - as both have been to Africa and both own Native dogs from a similar region. As always - I like to have as many facts as possible before leaping to a conclusion." as conclusive statement of alleged fact, not a question. My reaction was a knee-jerk defense of Manu.

I did not presume that anyone knew anything about me. My original post was only about Manu; it was not about me. When presenting facts about Manu's background, I did not realize that I had to qualify myself in order to make the facts acceptable or not.
It was only later that I replied on my own behalf in response to specific presumptions made about who I am.

In no instance did I address any individual dogs, any importation effort, any analysis of type or typiness of imports, nor did I make any comment about what is in the best interest for the breed, nor did I say anything about my personal background having any reflection on Manu's level of knowledge, nor did I ever label myself as the ultimate expert / guardian / ultimate decision maker for the breed, etcetera. … all things attributed to me in 'your' (generic) posts.
Again, my post was not an opinion post or my view of anything but was only a presentation of facts and information about Manu. Admittedly, the message was framed by my sentiments founded in posts outside the purview of this forum. That was my mistake.

I must say, reading the comments from the past two days has certainly been enlightening to me on many levels.
Thank you all for your candor.
Jo

[sinbaje]

Thanks for the clarification on your end Jo.

I would like to clarify one thing on my end - lest people read the following wrong:

@JoT:

I wrote my original note out of my annoyance at comments on other lists of which some of you do not see.

I have never said anything good, bad or indifferent about Manu on any other list. I do not know Manu and barely (as evidenced by my query and lack of knowledge of the extent she visited/lived in Africa) know anything about her or her interests much less her expertise on native dogs. I have since been sent another link to read http://ghana-outdoors.blogspot.com/search?q=dogs (thank you!) and find her to be quite an interesting and enjoyable read.

[DebraDownSouth]

Okay people, wth? Has the holiday season infected you all?

TOTALLY KIDDING!

Thank you Dr Jo. My responses were reactive (defense of Linda much as you did Manu), and your post today professional and wonderful to read.

I really would like to learn more from you, just not enough to join any other group. I hope you pop in more often and contribute. Yes, I know most of us here are pet owners, but you can help created educated pet owners.

[DebraDownSouth]

@sinbaje:

I would like to clarify one thing on my end - lest people read the following wrong:
I have never said anything good, bad or indifferent about Manu on any other list. I do not know Manu and barely (as evidenced by my query and lack of knowledge of the extent she visited/lived in Africa) know anything about her or her interests much less her expertise on native dogs. I have since been sent another link to read http://ghana-outdoors.blogspot.com/search?q=dogs (thank you!) and find her to be quite an interesting and enjoyable read.

Considering you have been accused of this 3 times, I'd like to see the persons saying it to either clarify they didn't mean you personally or else say you are a liar and post it, because so far neither have stood up and responded to your repeated denials.

[Rita Jean]

MERRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR.
Start new year out right forgive and start over.
I wish I could get my B's to sing Merry Christmas lol..

Rita Jean

[sinbaje]

I just realized I did not give Andrea the courtesy of a reply. Sorry.

@Quercus:

I have met you more than twice, but I don't really care if you confuse me with Brenda, because she is one of the most awesome people I know.

She is pretty cool from what I can gather. Glad it was not someone you did not like. :O) Any chance you could refresh my memory on when we have met. I feel at a disadvantage now. :O) Privately is fine.

@Quercus:

Your posts don't piss me off…but surely you recognize that you spark people's angry responses? Maybe you don't.

Actually I don't. Not because I am obtuse (quit laughing people!) and don't recognize what anger looks like but mostly because if someone gets pissed off at another's direct question - especially a benign or mundane question - I am turning my head to the side more at the pissed off person trying to figure out what it is they did not like vs looking at the person who actually asked the direct question. IOW, I am wondering - is it a case of the truth hurts, a misunderstanding, personal baggage, one-upmanship, redirection (displaced aggression in some circles) to avoid answering, ???? I would be trying to decide if the response matched the query and if it did not, why not.

Kind of like when I used to ask breeder A and C about breeder B when I was a newbie. I was more willing to accept and believe breeder A's negative critiques of breeder B since they answered matter of fact, tempered it with positives and threw in a few negative things about their own breedings as an example of how common it might be (a balanced response) vs accepting/believing breeder C's who negative critique is all she shares (nothing positive) on the tail end of why breeder C feels she, herself, is awesome and matter of fact - according to her - she is the ONLY awesome breeder out there (believe me - I have met these people!). If that makes a lick of sense. I guess in the end, for me, it is all about trying to look at all sides and motivations et al (if possible) before coming to any conclusions. Sometimes I am right on the money, sometimes close by and sometimes out of the ballpark (and I do not mean home run!).

@Quercus:

I do find you rather argumentative, but that is not a character flaw in my book …. I don't know, since I don't know really know you, as you pointed out.

I would disagree with your assessment that I am argumentative. To me that means to argue just for the sake of arguing and believe me - I have better things to do then argue just for the sake of hearing my own voice or seeing my written words. I would like to think I am a truth seeker (I know - sappy - but I can not think of anything better at this time and butthead is not 100% correct either:), not caring what people do or say in the world as long as they are straight forward, honest and not overly offense (no racist/sexist/gay slurs for me) and without bullying. Only thing I dislike more than bullies are dishonest, underhanded and manipulative bullies. But I digress.

Anyways - thanks for answering my queries.

@DebraDownSouth:

One of 2 things should happen… either the people who have pretty much flat out accused you of this apologize or they show you are lying, because to date now 3 times it has been said you did do this.

Just want to say thanks for sticking up for me Debra. Since you and I are total strangers, I do appreciate it. Your candor is jaw dropping and inspiring at the same time

.

[DebraDownSouth]

LOL well I was evidently trying to soften my response when you quoted it.

But here's the thing… Babylon 5 writer, J Michael Straczynski once said not to attribute things to him he didn't say, that he got himself into enough trouble with his actual words. I don't mind someone taking me to task over what I have actually done, but don't make things up.

And just because you assume I meant something but there is a chance you are misinterpreting it, ask first before you say it as fact. Of course, I am guilty of the same thing... so that isn't a wag of the finger.

You got flayed. If you deserved it, that's one thing. But nothing you posted here warranted it and you got accused of I guess being at fault because you were bad other places... which you deny and they don't respond to. That bothers me.

[sharronhurlbut]

Back to the thread. If Rose Marie had said, african dogs for sell, who could fault her?
BUT calling her dogs basenjis, when they have NOT been proven to be, is IMO. incorrect.
Also, if she is trying to create a new breed, then why is she mixing basenjis with these "unique" dogs?

[rmholt]

@Patty:

Can we see pictures please?

Have you seen the photos yet?

Marie

[rmholt]

@Patty:

Can we see pictures please?

@Heinz57:

I feel lost. You chose to breed basenjis that are not recognized by the AKC and/or bred the dogs for a project to introduce more genetic diversity? Have they been tested for fanconi? It smells somewhat fishy that you aren't divulging their health info.

I chose to bring in indigenous dogs from Benin.
I have to actually submit them to be accepted in to the AKC. I havent done that yet. I am not in a rush. No Avuvis have yet been submitted. We are not in a rush. There is plenty of time. Fanconi is in process. Fanconi cam to light due to inbreedding. This doesnt mean I dont have affecteds or carriers and I do need to test. I was hoping to get a job but hasnt panned out so I am getting the testing now. PK is negative. This isnt in OFA bc I just yesterday found out you could put this on OFA. However I dont know if I have to resubmit or what. I have the certificates. I was less happy waiting on Fanconi when I found out newer imports from Congo had the allele Previous imports from both areas were totally negative. ALL buyers were told that Fanconi had not been done and my concerns - and the price includes a test for their pups. They havent done them yet - I need to remind them.

[rmholt]

@Patty:

I'm not a breeder, just a basenji lover, and while I care about the dog's health, the papers that are often included with a purebred offer peace of mind, and then they are shoved into the back of a desk drawer. Being a purebred with papers doesn't mean that the dog's health is 100% clear… as evident if you look up my Lola in the OFA database (her birth name is Halo, Dec 2008).

I'm still wanting pictures, because there's nothing more adorable than basenji puppies!

Email me patty and I can send you some photos.

rmholt1 @ mindspring. com

[rmholt]

@sharronhurlbut:

Rose Marie..you wrote to me..

First, If my dogs are African Village dogs so is yours. You dont have any room to speak here.

My post you to. Excuse me. I talked to folks at the national re my girl and her help with the basenji breed. They liked the other dogs brought over, but my Miss Wheat was NOT to their liking. Guess What Rose Marie. I didn't just go head and breed her. I got her fixed.
Let me repeat. My girl would NOT be an asset to the new breeding project so I got her fixed.
You on the otherhand, have just added to the "littering" of dogs across the US.
Shame on you!!!

Shame on ME?? For what? I have made so far 7 people happy. I will be adding to the genetic diversity of the US basenji. I have helped a family in Africa along with other friends. While looking for Macho I have helped resuce Shibas and basenjis. I dont judge your decision. You have no grounds to put me down here. You havent had to rescue one of my dogs, you have said that my work has helped dogs (transport) your words "saved their lives". I'd have bred to Wheat because I like the original basenji not the US brand as long as she was from a remote area and was like the originals.

You dont like breeding but that is no excuse for excoriating people who dont agree with you. You have no reason to keep looking for reasons to call me names.

[rmholt]

@DebraDownSouth:

So you look at the age of people to determine where they fit?
I am not even going to respond except to point out one obvious issue… your last sentence ... you don't take your own advice. Oh wait, if you are YOUNG, then whatever spews forth is professional education. Got it.

There arent any of the older wiser breeders on here. If you want calm intelligent discussion and rational exchange of ideas, there are better places. There are many.

[rmholt]

@Patty:

Interesting that this posting is about Avuvis - I understood from Manou who I believe is an acknowledged expert on Avuvis that they were not Basenjis but very different and distinct breed.

She came over to Crufts one year and stood beside me near the Basenji ringside discussing the two breeds and categorically stated that Avuvis are different from Basenjis.

I am now confused and perhaps somebody could enlighten me as we don't have Avuvis in the UK.

MANOU? Isnt she from Cameroun? Anyway, I got my Avuvi info from a guy who has lived there his whole life. I didnt get any non-typical dogs. There are no nontypical dogs in the village. The population is very stable there. I went there to see how dogs and people interacted and how isolated this place could really be. This is a part of Africa that whites stayed out of due to mosquito borne illness. It isnt mexico city where loose dogs are everywhere. I have a whole chapter on that. But I was convinced. I saw for myself. I could not more have snatched a dog off the street than I could have jumped over the moon.

I dont know who acknowledged Manou as an Avuvi expert but I wouldnt and no one else in the Avuvi program has ever called her that. SHe is entitled to her opinion but it isnt informed AFAIK

[rmholt]

@Kipawa:

"Extra" 3 dogs? Was this litter planned at all with a list of perspective buyers? It makes my heart sink to hear these little lives considered "extra", which to me comes across as "unintended" or considered "throw aways".

Then it should make your heart sink to buy from a show breeder. The ones they dont want are sold as pets. They breed specifically to get this year's show dog.

I screen my pet buyers as hard as anyone bc Africans are not your cookie cutter basenjis. They have traits that have not yet been bred out. Nothing bad, just different.

I have one pup reserved. The rest are up for adoption. My last litters were oops (husbadn not up to speed and me out of town) and not one of those pups was "thrown away" - i do not appreciate you talking about my buyers that way!!

[rmholt]

@Basenjimamma:

I am confused, are they or are they not basenjis?…Some of them look the part but others don't...and even on Avuvi 2009 facebook page ( i.e Rose Marie H), it states that they are pretending to be basenjis...? well if they are basenjis why "pretend" to be like them..
Maybe I am having a serious blond moment..I have been known to have those..:)

Maybe I have a little bit of a sense of humor. None of these accusations and opinions about Avuvis are new since 2004. They have been run off of legitimate lists and are now at rest here.

[rmholt]

@sharronhurlbut:

I agree the stud book should be left open indefinitely. Anyway that will happen?

Agree as well, on the studbook.

Manou's "Avuvis" arenot the south Benin dogs - they arent from the same area, though they have the same "name"

[rmholt]

@sinbaje:

JoT:

Since you presume to know me as you state "Once again…" and I do not know of any Jo's in the DRC, nor have had any conversations with any person who lives in the DRC I can only presume this is Jo Thompson from Ohio?

Regardless, I would have you please re-read what I wrote before the public flogging; I specifically asked for credentials and stated "as far as I know..." so of course I do not know since I admitted as much. :O)

Sorry, but I did not jump to any conclusions. Asking for more information is not jumping to conclusions - it is seeking more information in order to come to a conclusion, any conclusion. And since I have not studied the Avuvi to the degree you apparently have, I have little knowledge in who did what, and when and where, so I do appreciate the history lesson.

Now then - I would love to hear what my agenda is if you would be so kind since I have no native dogs needing inclusion and do not plan to have any in the foreseeable future.

Thanks.

Robert Dean got his information about Benin dogs (the CURRENT Avuvis) from A Peace Corp worker and a native friend of his. He did a lot of casting about before landing on this area. Manou was not part of the 2004 and 2009 Avuvi imports at all.

The Fon language is spread along the coast of West Africa, not respecting country boundaries.

Jo is known to have misstated and misquoted Robert in the past in an attempt to discredit him and the Avuvi dogs. Again, ,this kind of thing has been run off of the other lists, and has landed in this area. I have to admit it was amazing to see Robert actually have to get on the lists to refute some of these misstatements and clarify them in the middle of a personal crisis.

Jo is known by me to have taken on a false identity in order to send information to someone involved in litigation with me. She could only have gotten the information only one way, which identified her as the culprit. She also offered to be of help against me. She had no personal interest in this litigation except to do something to me. I was cc'd all the info by the person she was trying to help and made a fool of herself with this person.

So I wouldnt call her "facts" objective.