Electronic Collar Training

[Quercus]

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Actually, the only way to use it IS a punishment...and that is okay. The dog should only receive the shock after you have given her a command, and she has failed to obey.
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Yes, absolutely! You would never want to startle a dog that was already nervous, or fearful. Unfortunately way too many people try to solve aggression problems with shock collars, and only make the problem worse.
Glad it worked for you.

[Kate]

Let me reclarify! You don't get angry, and push the button, just because the dog isn't listening! You use the beep tone first, and if the dog still doesn't want to respond, you use the shock! It only takes a couple of times, for the dog to understand that they need to listen to the beep! After using the beep for a while, they learn to listen to your voice command! You never use it to zap a dog for being bad! Callie only ever got the number 3 twice, because she took off after a bunch of deer! That was all it took! Now, she watches them run, but listens to me, when I tell her no! Without the collar on!
My husband and son and I, all used the collar on 3 on each other! It didn't hurt, only startled you! The rest of the time, we only used the 2 setting, and that wasn't very often. Like I said before, I love my dog, and didn't want her to run off, and get killed! She seems to be much more relaxed now, and knows that she is a part of the family, but that we are in charge! We spent the early morning, with her laying on my chest, with her head under my chin! Such a sweetie! If you are someone that can't control your temper, I wouldn't advise you using a training collar! If you can, and are very patient, and loving, it will work!

[Quercus]

Right…I understand. You don't use the shock in anger. The shock is still a punishment for not listening to the beep,or the command.

Some dogs do great with shock collars....some do not. I can not, as a professional dog trainer, stand by as someone advocates it as the solution to dog training problems as long as you are someone who can control your temper. That is dangerous, and irresponsible advice...

I am sorry if you think I am being argumentative. But as long as you advise hundreds of people here that it is the perfect solution, I will argue that it is not. I am honestly glad it helped you...I don't say that with sarcasm; and I absolutely believe that your dog is more relaxed, loving and trained. But I think it is a really dangerous thing to suggest to people when you haven't seen their dogs, or know their problems.

That's the nice thing about positive reinforcement training, you can make suggestions to anyone and not worry about doing more damage than has already been done.

[lvoss]

@Quercus:

That's the nice thing about positive reinforcement training, you can make suggestions to anyone and not worry about doing more damage than has already been done.

I totally agree, Andrea. There is a really good article in the Whole Dog Journal this month on training. You have to subscribe to read it. It is a great journal, lots of good information. Subscribers can search the archives and find great articles on Food, Separation Anxiety, and so many other topics that have come up on here.

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/10_5/features/Positive_Dog_Training_15931-1.html

[Kate]

I know you aren't arguing; just want what is best for the dogs as I do.

I never said it was a perfect solution, or advised everyone to try it. As I said in my first post, it would depend on the dog, and the person, if you used it or not! If you have a bad temper, I'd advise you to never use it. If you have the patience of Job, and the dog doesn't want to listen any other way, you could try it! Just use the training video they give you, and learn to do it right first!

[lvoss]

@Kate:

I I never said it was a perfect solution, or advised everyone to try it. As I said in my first post, it would depend on the dog, and the person, if you used it or not! If you have a bad temper, I'd advise you to never use it. If you have the patience of Job, and the dog doesn't want to listen any other way, you could try it! Just use the training video they give you, and learn to do it right first!

These two sentences are a contradiction. If you are not advising people to try it then you would not have written the last 2 sentences. This advice could be utterly disasterous because it does not take into account the temperament of the dog at all. I do not think it is a good thing to recommend or advise people to try shock collars or other coercive methods.

1. Some dogs will escalate when coercive techniques are used. This means that if you have an aggressive dog it will become more aggressive. Even a dog that is not aggressive can escalate to aggression when it does not understand why it is being punished. I have seen this happen and it happens quickly.

2. Some dogs are very sensitive. Giving even the mildest of shocks or correction could permanently damage any hope of gaining the dog's trust and destroy its confidence. I have seen this happen also.

I whole heartedly support what Andrea said about positive reinforcement. Positive training methods are all about building a positive relationship between you and your dog. Positive reinforcement helps to build trust and confidence in a dog. I personally have seen the difference in the attitude and outlook of a dog that positive training vs. coercive training makes and it is huge.

[Kate]

All I'm saying, is that even though a lot of people don't approve, it worked wonderfully for us, because we didn't abuse it! We use positive reinforcement as much as we can also! I totally agree with you, that it is the best method! I used it with our first two dogs! Both came when called, did many tricks, and were very loving! We lost the first dog at 14 years, and the second at sixteen! They were both very well behaved! It didn't work with this dog, and the collar, plus positive reinforcement, did!

[tanza]

I don't know if your other dogs were Basenjis or not, don't remember if you said so or not, however, it is really not in their nature to come when called especially if they are sighting something much better then you. I have a pretty big yard and if I watch my Basenjis (when they were young, 3 of the 4 are over 14 and pretty much deaf, or more deaf then their "selective" hearing as young dogs)… but anyway, back to the story, I would watch them in the yard crusin the bushes for critters... I would call them... and watch their ears flick back towards me... did they come, nope, not if what they were interested in was better then what they thought I had for them.... One of the reasons that we recommend that Basenjis are not to be trusted off lead especially where cars are involved.... in an open field situation, mine stick pretty much with me with no problem... but at my house, I would never ever trust them loose in the front yard... not for a minute...

[Quercus]

@Kate:

All I'm saying, is that even though a lot of people don't approve, it worked wonderfully for us, because we didn't abuse it!

And all I'm saying is it worked wonderfully for you because your dog responded well to it. A dog can fail to respond well to a shock collar even if the trainer doesn't abuse it. A person could use a shock collar perfectly, and sparingly, and STILL cause her dog to adopt a superstitious fear of an unintended external cue.

Punishment works in training…no one ever said it doesn't. It also often comes along with some unintended consequences.

[Duke]

@Kate:

All I'm saying, is that even though a lot of people don't approve, it worked wonderfully for us, because we didn't abuse it! We use positive reinforcement as much as we can also! I totally agree with you, that it is the best method! I used it with our first two dogs! Both came when called, did many tricks, and were very loving! We lost the first dog at 14 years, and the second at sixteen! They were both very well behaved! It didn't work with this dog, and the collar, plus positive reinforcement, did!

Hi Kate - So sorry for the loss of your 2 furbabies. I'm sure they were wonderful family members. And I understand your point here! You are using the shock collar responsibly, unlike some folk that may use it as punishment. Every Basenji and dog is different in their adaptability to certain training methods.

I have an electric invisible underground fence. . . I have it to keep my furbaby inside the boundry lines of my property. (Our neighborhood association has a "no visible fence rule".) Duke's electronic collar emits beeps when he gets close to lines within 5 feet. He will be shocked every time he gets within 1 foot. We got this fence when he was 4 mos old, early training. Don't know, it may not work with more mature dogs. However, Duke knows his boundry and usually has no problem. Daisy will get her collar this month. She is now 4 mos old. She will learn like Duke did - young. Both are very smart. Daisy's collar cost $200 training included. (not cheap)

The only problem we've had was to be negligent once to test the batteries. They do wear out with frequent activity (boundry useage). I did have a scare recently as Duke forged over the weak current to scare a dog and his walker. Lucky for me, dog walker stood still so I could recover Duke from danger. :eek: I was so scared!!! Please make sure the collar batteries are tested and replaced when needed.

[Quercus]

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[tanza]

Everyone has the thing that they are comfortable with.. as Andrea says… anything that emits shocks is and always will be punishment based... and for me I would never use an underground fence... it doesn't keep unwanted "guests, critter or human" out of the yard... only works on the one wearing the collar... and I have seen many dogs run right though the shock.. some will stop and I am glad yours does... me, I would never trust them....

[dash]

This is a good thread. We have thought about getting one for the same reason–to keep him from running off. the problem was he would run out the door and tear away. I think he would know the collar wasn't on and it would be mute. I also had remembered someone years ago saying it would not stop shocking for whatever reason and the dog having issues.

[Duke]

@Quercus:

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I agree it is a consequence, but not punishment b/c he has learned the consequence. IMO, the word punishment has a negative connotation, not the same as the word consequence. However, we teach our children and fur kids that for every good or bad action, there is a consequence - good or bad.
For my dogs own safety and enjoyment to run freely and fast as they can on my 1/2 acre lot, the underground fence is a solution. Otherwise, they'd be forever restricted on a leash. I am very happy for all who have a nice tall secure fence and don't have to depend on electrical fencing. It would be my preference.
FYI - With the underground fencing, the electrical frequency is calibrated with distance. If dog doesn't move away from the line, there is shock - Duhhh? I wouldn't know about the shock collar for training purposes.

[tanza]

Again, that is punishment… you can wrap it up in any name you want, consequence or whatever, getting a shock is not nice, it is punishment... and it is the same as consequence with that result... As you stated yourself, frequency is calibrated... too close, bigger shock... sorry but that is punishment to me....

Like I said I am glad your fence works for you, again I would never have one, nor would I recommend one... same as the shock collar...

[tanza]

@dash:

This is a good thread. We have thought about getting one for the same reason–to keep him from running off. the problem was he would run out the door and tear away. I think he would know the collar wasn't on and it would be mute. I also had remembered someone years ago saying it would not stop shocking for whatever reason and the dog having issues.

You are much better off using positive training methods. It would be well worth the money spend to hire a trainer to help…. and obviously you have seen the negative side of trying to use a shock collar...

[Duke]

@tanza:

Again, that is punishment… you can wrap it up in any name you want, consequence or whatever, getting a shock is not nice, it is punishment... and it is the same as consequence with that result... As you stated yourself, frequency is calibrated... too close, bigger shock… sorry but that is punishment to me….

Like I said I am glad your fence works for you, again I would never have one, nor would I recommend one... same as the shock collar...

No - not bigger shock, just shock associated with whatever degree (1 - 10) is designed by owner on collar.

I agree, getting a shock is not nice - neither is alot of other things in life lessons. Thankfully, we can all express opinions here.

[tanza]

@Duke:

No - not bigger shock, just shock associated with whatever degree (1 - 10) is designed by owner on collar.

I agree, getting a shock is not nice - neither is alot of other things in life lessons. Thankfully, we can all express opinions here.

Exactly…. as with all things we will have to agree to disagree!

[Quercus]

@Duke:

I agree it is a consequence, but not punishment b/c he has learned the consequence. IMO, the word punishment has a negative connotation, not the same as the word consequence. However, we teach our children and fur kids that for every good or bad action, there is a consequence - good or bad.

For my dogs own safety and enjoyment to run freely and fast as they can on my 1/2 acre lot, the underground fence is a solution. Otherwise, they'd be forever restricted on a leash. I am very happy for all who have a nice tall secure fence and don't have to depend on electrical fencing. It would be my preference.

FYI - With the underground fencing, the electrical frequency is calibrated with distance. If dog doesn't move away from the line, there is shock - Duhhh? I wouldn't know about the shock collar for training purposes.

I just want to reiterate…I am NOT against underground fencing. I have lots of clients that use it successfully, and are very happy with it. I most likely wouldn't use it with my dogs, unless in conjunction with an existing fence.. but not because I think it doesn't work, or is cruel. I think it is the only real option for a lot of people. Remote shock collars and shock fences are very different things in the way that they operate. There is no room for human or operator error with a fence…dog gets too close..zap. No subjectivity, no flexibiltiy, no decision being made by the fence about how close is too close...the consequence is exactly the same every time.

Anyhow...we are just arguing semantics. In learning theory anything that you add to a learning situation which decreases the likelyhood of the behavior occuring again IS called a punishment. So when the dog ignores the beep, and shock is added, and the behavior of ignore the beep decreases....voila, punishment, consequence, whatever.

[nomrbddgs]

Every dog is individual and the fencing method may work for one but not the other. As Pat says-I would never trust mine. If focused enough they will run right through the fencing. As for the shock collar-some emit a beep, some don't and some you can shut it off. It will work with some dogs but not with all. Some dogs will turn aggressive if the collar is used without regard for the dog. You have to be right on time with the right strength of shock. Many people have a problem being on time and shock the poor thing out of turn. Then the poor dog becomes confused. I wouldn't use the collar on most dogs without trying other methods first.