He's Arriving On Saturday!

[SpoliedKai]

Myself and my partner will discuss that when and if it happens.

[lvoss]

Why not look for a breeder that bred health tested parents so there is no need to have that discussion?

I really don't understand why you or anyone would support a breeder who cares so little for their animals they wouldn't spring for a $65 test to make sure they produced healthy puppies. I would really like someone, anyone to give me a reasonable explanation.

If you don't care about health, why not save a life and rescue a homeless basenji? Medfly Basenji Rescue has nearly 100 basenji needing homes because they came from breeders who didn't care for them either and so they got dumped in shelters when their owners didn't or couldn't keep them anymore.

[SpoliedKai]

I don't know Ivoss, I had nothing to do with the purchase.

But I am positive my partner would of done his research about the breeder, he is meticulous when it comes to research.

Who said I didn't care about health? I sure as hell didn't.

Do you "interrogate" every new member like this?

[lvoss]

Actually, if you go look at most new puppy threads, yes, I do. Fanconi is heartbreaking and 100% preventable. Your buying from a breeder who won't test only means you are supporting their decision and insuring future puppies will be bred with no testing.

If you are buying an untested puppy from untested parents then the only conclusion I can draw is that you don't care about health otherwise you would demand the test results prior to spending money.

[SpoliedKai]

How many times do you I have to tell you.

I HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PURCHASE.

[lvoss]

But you are aware of the issue and this puppy is supposed to be a gift to you. So why are you not having the discussions with your partner now instead of holding breath and hoping for the best?

I am not trying to interrogate, I just honestly do not understand. Dogs are such a huge committment. I don't understand the concept of a "surprise" puppy and I don't understand not asking questions when there are reasonable and fairly serious questions to be asked.

[irena]

@SpoliedKai:

I don't know Ivoss, I had nothing to do with the purchase.

But I am positive my partner would of done his research about the breeder, he is meticulous when it comes to research.

Who said I didn't care about health? I sure as hell didn't.

Do you "interrogate" every new member like this?

I must agree with something what lvoss wrote.
Firstly I would want to be acquainted with choice of breeder since the start. IMO buying of dog shouldn't be surprise as same as shouldn't be Christmas present, birthday present etc…
From what I saw at the website of your breeder I can say I don't have a good feeling of that. I couldn't find any info about parents of puppies, their health info and more important info.
For me it seems your partner wasn't as meticulous as he should.

[SpoliedKai]

I have only known about Kai since Sunday afternoon, I have been aware of the issue since sunday night.

Myself and my partner will be discussing it tonight, but I am damn sure the puppy will be falconi free, my partner has had Basenji's in the past so he knows what he's doing, he's even already bought everything required, so the online shopping spree I was SO looking forward to won't be happening…damnit!

I myself was raised with dogs, my parents used to breed Rottweilers for dog shows in England so as for being a huge commitment, I know all about it.

[tanza]

Here is a link on how to find a responsible breeder, it has been posted on the forums many times and is on the Basenji Club of America parent club site. I think that if you read though this, you can see that maybe the research was not as good as it could have been.
http://www.basenji.org/learn/ScreeningBreeders.htm
That is a good place to start when interested in a breed, the parent club site. You learn about health issues, responsible breeders, Basenjis in general, local clubs (which you have in Southern California)
Note that there is a section on screening prospective buyers…. and the one statement that says "A breeder who will sell/ship a puppy without references and a thorough screening process should be cause for concern". And again, this is just one of many tests that should be done before breedings. Here is an example of a well health tested Basenji and all the records are made public so that anyone can see them.
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1293496#animal
I do not think you will find that from the breeder of this puppy boy.
This breeder breds more then one breed, how can this person/persons properly socialize a puppy with that many different breeds? Leads to the question, how are they cared for? Are they raised in the home? Or in a kennel when they do not get the socialization of family life? Things like hearing the TV, radio, Vaccuum cleaners, all kinds of day to day family things….

[tanza]

It is Fanconi, not Falconi

[SpoliedKai]

I will have my partner contact them and will provide a report for all of you tomorrow.

[tanza]

@SpoliedKai:

I will have my partner contact them and will provide a report for all of you tomorrow.

If the sire and dam are not on the ofa website then they have not been tested. It is a requirement that any Fanconi tested dog be listed on a public database. So if you find out the name of the sire and the dam, you can check it out for yourself. (which is always a good thing to do, check it out for yourself)

[YodelDogs]

SpolidKai,
As you have seen, people on the forum are passionate about Fanconi disease. Those of us who have been in Basenjis for a very long time are fully aware of the affects this disease has not only on the dog itself but for the family who owns it also. Affected dogs must have expensive tests runs every few months and most have to be be force-fed handfuls of pills daily. They drink large amounts of water and urinate frequently and large quantities. Some do ok on this protocal, others do not and must be euthanized. All of this can be prevented by giving the adults a simple $65 test prior to breeding them. Just $65, that's it, and it only has to be done once in a dog's lifetime.

So when we hear about puppies being produced from untested parents, we become passionate. We love our breed and we want to protect our breed. In our eyes, any breeder who either chooses not to do the Fanconi test or is too ignorant to even know about the test is harming the breed. We try to steer buyers away from breeders like that because we don't want the buyers to end up heartbroken. Another thing is that when breeders like that cannot find buyers they either stop breeding Basenjis or learn to breed a bit more responsibly. This is beneficial to the breed as a whole since fewer affected animals will be produced.

[Kananga]

@lvoss:

But you are aware of the issue and this puppy is supposed to be a gift to you. So why are you not having the discussions with your partner now instead of holding breath and hoping for the best?

I am not trying to interrogate, I just honestly do not understand. Dogs are such a huge committment. I don't understand the concept of a "surprise" puppy and I don't understand not asking questions when there are reasonable and fairly serious questions to be asked.

Everyone has a different level of expectations and priorities in life, and it changes with every subject.

The same could be said about individuals buying homes, cars, etc. Not everyone is as meticulous as you would expect. That's just a thing with our society and human beings in general. It's impossible for every individual to be fully educated on every single topic.

Those of you who breed dogs already know these things. You simply cannot expect every individual looking to make an addition to their family with a dog know every single thing to look for like you do.

You can raise awareness (and I think that's a great thing), but you can't criticize everyone who takes in a new dog. I'm sure we can all find things in life to criticize others about that we have extensive knowledge over. I come across it every day. All you can do is educate, don't continue to focus on what they missed or did wrong, but educate for the purpose of going forward. I will admit some of you get quite fixated on some of these flaws and I think you just need to let it go and let the individuals understand what they need to know going forward.

Just my .02

[Kananga]

With that said… Congratulations on Kai. It sounds like you are committed to educating yourself on the unique health concerns regarding Basenjis. I'm sure you'll find yourself knowledgeable of some great things that are shared on this forum. The forum and the members that post are simply a great resource.

[lvoss]

Except when people come to these forums and say they plan to do the test when the puppy arrives that says to me they know the test exists. If they know the test exists and have read about the test then they should also have seen the breeding recommendations and know that parents should be tested PRIOR to breeding.

It is very different if a person didn't know about the test. I don't understand knowing about a test and disease and not requiring the testing be done by the seller. It is the seller's responsibility to prove they have a quality product, not the buyer's responsibility to prove otherwise.

[Kananga]

@lvoss:

Except when people come to these forums and say they plan to do the test when the puppy arrives that says to me they know the test exists. If they know the test exists and have read about the test then they should also have seen the breeding recommendations and know that parents should be tested PRIOR to breeding.

It is very different if a person didn't know about the test. I don't understand knowing about a test and disease and not requiring the testing be done by the seller. It is the seller's responsibility to prove they have a quality product, not the buyer's responsibility to prove otherwise.

These are all assumptions. Again, it seems like a no-brainer to those that are greatly familiar with the said subject, but it can still be rather unclear to others. Even if they know about the test itself.

[diff_eqs]

@lvoss:

Except when people come to these forums and say they plan to do the test when the puppy arrives that says to me they know the test exists. If they know the test exists and have read about the test then they should also have seen the breeding recommendations and know that parents should be tested PRIOR to breeding.

It is very different if a person didn't know about the test. I don't understand knowing about a test and disease and not requiring the testing be done by the seller. It is the seller's responsibility to prove they have a quality product, not the buyer's responsibility to prove otherwise.

I agree with Lisa… (in the hindsight). I almost made a really big mistake getting a puppy from an "irresponsible" breeder aka "puppymill" without all the health tests done on the puppy. For me it was a little more unacceptable than for SpoiledKai because I was aware of all the tests and got every possible test done on Lana prior to breeding her, as every responsible breeder should do. Unfortunately my feelings and emotions can sometimes overrun the common sense. Fortunately people on this website are looking out for other people (and dogs).

SpoiledKai, 3 weeks ago I was almost in the same spot you are in right now: got all the paperwork, and deposit in on the puppy and waiting for it to come home within four days. Upon further research, a lot of thinking and a lot of valuable advice from senior members here, I decided against it. As a person who's "been there done that" just a little time ago, I understand how hard it can be to take the criticism on this particular matter from other members here. Now (as I said, hindsight is a great thing) I am 100% with the people who say "think about it." So, I will pitch in too (although I am by no means as knowledgeable as some of the other people here are) and say: if the tests were not done on the parents, chances are the breeder is only breeding these dogs to make money, which is further supported by the fact that they have 10 or so different breeds and puppies available for every one of those breeds. You should definitely talk to you partner and see how much research has actually been done on the breeder. Better yet, call the breeder yourself, and ask about the tests, or at least the Fanconi test.

Also, in hindsight, thanks to all who "criticized" me and made me make the right decision!

[tanza]

@Kananga:

These are all assumptions. Again, it seems like a no-brainer to those that are greatly familiar with the said subject, but it can still be rather unclear to others. Even if they know about the test itself.

When a person comes to these boards and indicates that they are "getting" a puppy, but have not done so yet, that is the time to show maybe a different path. It is understandable that people get angry when it is pointed out that maybe they did not know to research or have missed some important points. And sometimes it is difficult to drive home a point…. but if we can stop one person from supporting these irresponsible breeders then, IMO opinion it is worth it. There is one person in our group here that had that experience of getting a puppy, then finding out it was DNA Affected for Fanconi. And that person was crushed.... but by that time would not consider sending the pup back... and this was from a breeder that did test, after the breeding (carrier to either carrier or untested) all the pups and still sold the affects without telling the buyers, just sold at a reduced price. I would suppect that 99% of the people if they got a pup home, spent some time with it, would have the same reaction and not send it back...even if they then test Fanconi Affected or have any other health issue, as this is not the affliction that our breed has. But now let themselves in for possible heartache years down the road, not to mention the worry... if/when that puppy might start spilling sugar.

You are buying a living, breathing animal that is going to be with you 15 to 18years...you are not buying a car or house.... I don't understand how someone could do a transaction over the internet (or phone) and just have an animal flown to them?... That said, I require people to come to pick up puppies, as I will not ship... and if I am purchasing a puppy, I fly to the puppy... and the deal is not done until I have met the breeder and have interacted with the puppies.

[tanza]

@diff_eqs:

I agree with Lisa… (in the hindsight). Also, in hindsight, thanks to all who "criticized" me and made me make the right decision!

And Kudos to you diff_eqs… you drive home the point with excellence!