My new brindle bundle of joy…

[eeeefarm]

@ownedbyspencer:

I can't even take a shower, because Ava goes nuts with doors closed.

Oh, I have the fix for that one! Take her in the shower with you. She will soon decide being on her own in the bathroom is preferable to accompanying you!

Seriously, I know this must be a very trying time, and believe me, most people would have given up by now. I am sure the rewards at the end will be worth it, so hang in there! Did you ever try "borrowing" an older, quiet dog to keep her company?

[ownedbyspencer]

@eeeefarm:

Oh, I have the fix for that one! Take her in the shower with you. She will soon decide being on her own in the bathroom is preferable to accompanying you!

Seriously, I know this must be a very trying time, and believe me, most people would have given up by now. I am sure the rewards at the end will be worth it, so hang in there! Did you ever try "borrowing" an older, quiet dog to keep her company?

LOL– I did try taking her in the shower, and she-- surprise!-- hated it. But she hates it outside looking in, too. Inside the shower, she slipped and slid and scratched up the grout. Leaving her outside, she scratched the glass, pulled up the caulking, chewed up the rubber strip under the shower door and used the bathroom on the bathmat. (OK, I can see how that might resemble a big fluffy pee pad.) It's easier to take a bath, but even there, there are challenges.

Interesting you bring up the older dog. I put in an application to foster a seven-year-old goldendoodle. If I'm approved, I'll take Ava to meet her, and if that works, I'll bring the doodle home for a trial afternoon. I'm a little worried about the two females thing, but the doodle is supposedly very calm and gentle, housetrained and crate trained. It's a sad situation where her owner died, so maybe we would all be helping each other.

[eeeefarm]

@ownedbyspencer:

I'm a little worried about the two females thing, but the doodle is supposedly very calm and gentle, housetrained and crate trained. It's a sad situation where her owner died, so maybe we would all be helping each other.

That sounds ideal. I would be very surprised if you had issues because Ava is still a pup. When I had two girls, I got my pup at 7 weeks while my older girl was 7 years. Even though Lady was same sex aggressive, she treated Tamu as a puppy, and as the pup grew up they remained inseparable. BFF for life. They mostly slept curled up together. And I think with a quiet, older doodle, your chances of a good match are excellent…..

[agilebasenji]

My first basenji (female) was great friends with hubby's lab. They were about a year apart in age,with the basenji being the older. So, Rox was about a year when the lab puppy joined her. And Zest! gets on fine with both female malinois we've had. The first was about 4 when puppy Zest! joined the household. That was a love match. I have dozens of pics of Z on top of the mali. Mali #1 sadly, unexpectedly passed when Z was about a 1 1/2 year old, so a month later we got a 10 month old femal mali. They get on fine, not like with mali #1, but no issues. I think with Ava being so young, it should work.

[agilebasenji]

I have to add, the goldendoodles i've met, at least in this area, are very sweet, good natured mild mannered dogs. ( i groom dogs, so i've had my hands on quite a few). Labradoodles are crazy though.

[ownedbyspencer]

I think Bs like big dogs. Spencer lived with two goldens for a good while– all males-- and they were a very happy pack. Guess who was the canine leader of that pack? Yep, the middle child, the little B, who was 1/3 their body weight. The reason Ava was not accepted into daycare is because they size the dogs into two play areas. Ava played too rough and wild with the small dogs, and they thought she was too little for the big dogs. And she probably is. But give her a few months.

If it works out, the goldendoodle would be a foster-- not here permanently. Though ya just never know. She's only 30 lbs-- not a big doodle at all. I feel bad for her. She was a well-loved girl and she misses her human.

[AnubisTheBarklessDog]

@ownedbyspencer:

I have only used positive reinforcement with Ava. I parted ways with the trainer who wanted to use a choke collar, because I wasn't on board with her methods. Ava has multiple issues, and we are treating each one independently, using desensitization therapy, clicker training and other positive techniques. I only did this after consulting with a board-certified veterinary behaviorist, who diagnosed Ava. We don't know to what degree these solutions will work or how long they will take, but I am hopeful.

I know that two months is not a lot of time, but when you have a puppy that can be neither confined nor left alone and daycare is not an option, the perspective shifts. I can't go to the grocery store… the pharmacy... or the bank without a dog sitter. I can't even take a shower, because Ava goes nuts with doors closed. Crating or babygating her an hour is not yet possible, because a setback could regress us to square one. I work with a demanding puppy leashed to my side. So while I have had dogs-- and Basenjis-- before, I have never had one like this. It's a new experience and a challenging one.

Sorry if my post sounded critical in any way; I did see that you'd given up on that trainer and that you'd mentioned clicker training, and I completely realise that Ava's anxiety sounds way beyond the average Basenji troublemaker… I just saw mention of choke collars and noise training in a few posts and panicked a bit.

About a decade ago my parents' Jack Russell started developing fearful aggression issues, and got some very bad training advice, including choke collars, and using a jerrycan filled with stones to make noise. Long story short - it made matters much worse. Because of that experience - and the much more pleasant and rewarding experience of clicker training my girl -, any thought of aversive training methods scares me...

The foster dog idea sounds great!

[lisastewart]

The exact address of the racing is 935 denver lane, midway, tn 37809. According to google maps its about an hour from Knoxville, its exit 15 on I 81 North and just a few miles off the exit.
I have never been there before, so not sure what the site is like, assuming is a typical farmers field.

[eeeefarm]

@AnubisTheBarklessDog:

any thought of aversive training methods scares me…

The problem is, who defines what is aversive to the dog? While you may think you are using only positive methods, in reality most "positive" trainers use at least negative punishment, and some also unwittingly use positive as well. The dog's reaction determines which it is. As I understand it, anything that increases the likelihood of the behaviour being repeated is reinforcement. Anything that decreases the likelihood of the behaviour being repeated is punishment.

So "time outs" in a crate or ignoring an aggressive puppy is a punishment…...in this case usually negative punishment, as you are taking away the pup's freedom to indulge in unwanted behaviour. Crating can also act as positive punishment, often unintentionally. For a dog that abhors confinement, it is hard to define it any other way. From the dog's point of view, it is punishment. So whatever behaviour immediately preceded confinement is being punished......which is how you train your dog not to come!! (see Karen Prior's notes on "the poisoned cue" http://www.clickertraining.com/node/164)

Of course, it is not quite so simple, and it is certainly possible to condition a more accepting attitude toward the crate, but for the experience to be positive something good needs to happen when the dog enters the crate, and it has to be more salient to the dog than the confinement is aversive. For some dogs, it just isn't possible to adequately compensate them for the loss of freedom.

It might be interesting to try backward chaining here. i.e. release from the crate earns a reward, but of course you must be in the crate in order to be released and receive the reward. So instead of directly rewarding entering the crate, you set it up so that the dog must enter the crate, be confined, then be released and receive the treat. The cues for each step of the behaviour act as positive reinforcers, as they allow the dog to do the next step and eventually get to the reward at the end. And then once this is solid and the dog is enjoying it, you can go on to gradually increase the amount of time before release. I might try something along those lines. It would be interesting to see the dog's response…..

For a good understanding of back chaining, see Karen Prior's article here: http://www.clickertraining.com/node/111

I taught the retrieve using this method. And I agree with her statement, "If you back-chain the retrieve you will always have a zesty, eager partner who will never try to play "keep-away" instead of fetching the object back to you."

I think the hardest thing when you are training is being clear what behaviour you are rewarding. If things aren't improving, perhaps you aren't reinforcing what you think you are!

[Nemo]

When I hear "aversive" I think of "pain", not punishment from a general operant conditioning perspective. But that's just me.

[eeeefarm]

@Nemo:

When I hear "aversive" I think of "pain", not punishment from a general operant conditioning perspective. But that's just me.

That's the trouble with terminology. It doesn't always mean the same thing to different people. Something can be mildly aversive and cause no pain, only perhaps irritation or annoyance (anyone here tickle their dog's feet?? ) But even actual pain is relative. Psychological pain can do far more harm than physical pain, which can be a useful thing and teaches you to keep your hands off a hot stove.

[ownedbyspencer]

Ava is an interesting case. It isn't the crate per se, but the underlying fear of confinement, which also applies to babygates, closed doors and X-pens. The crate is the worst, because claustrophobia comes into play. Now, Ava will willingly go into her crate to eat, drink, earn treats or play crate games. The issue comes when the door closes. At first, it was pure, wild, uncontrollable panic. That was when she had the explosive diarrhea, beat her paws against the door and twisted frantically around and around, hurling her body against the crate. I can't bear to remember that stage. We got a little past that and worked our way up to shutting the door while she ate… or had a bully stick. I would be right there and would open the door the second I sensed anxiety. The next stage will be even tougher, because it layers in the separation anxiety, which we are addressing with other techniques.

I revisit all this, because eeeefarm makes some good points, in that desensitization is a mix of positives and soft negatives. There are unwelcome consequences for unwanted behaviors. For example, at first, Ava would have a few bites of food, then want the crate door to be opened. I immediately opened the door, she came out and then I closed it and made her wait five minutes before she could get back in and eat. She was hungry, so this was negative reinforcement. It didn't hurt her and she always got her full meal, even if it took hours. And it worked. Now, I put her food in the crate and lock the door 5 minutes before I let her in to eat. She can't wait to get IN the crate. There's always something good waiting for her in there. I have never used the crate for punishment, and I never put her in it when I'm upset, so she won't pick up bad vibes.

Mixed in with the densentization therapy is NILIF, which is also a mix of positives and soft negatives. Ava has to sit outside her closed crate for a drink of water. She can have it any time she wants it, as much as she wants, but she has to sit and ask for the crate door to be opened. Viewed from this perspective, even clicker training can be a tradeoff of negative and positive-- Ava would probably rather continue digging in the flowerbed than come running at my command, but the treat compensates for having to give up something fun. Back-chaining sounds intriguing. I have read Karen Pryor, and it sounds vaguely familiar, but I'll have to go back and refresh my memory.

I do want to reiterate that none of this has ever hurt Ava or caused physical pain. The Martingale is as harsh as I've gotten. I think it's interesting and informative to share opinions, which is why I post about this-- to get helpful advice from others and perhaps help someone else cope with a difficult situation. After living with a Fanconi dog for 9 years and now dealing with Miss Ava's smorgasbord of problems, I find myself a fount of information-- yet every day I find that I know nothing at all!

[eeeefarm]

ownedbyspencer, what you have described is very smart training. My hat is off to you. Not everyone has the patience or the knowledge to find the right approach for a dog like Ava, but I think you are well on your way. Putting something desirable inside the crate really turns things around, because you build that anticipation and getting into the crate becomes a goal for the dog. You've taken it just that much further, and I am sure you are eventually going to win this!

[Nemo]

I like to think in terms of LIMA, least intrusive, minimally aversive which is the philosophy that the IAABC uses. I doubt they define aversive as pain but that is where my mind goes as that is what I want to avoid as much as possible, be it mental or physical.

[ownedbyspencer]

I can't take credit. I'm like a sponge– I listen to everything and use what I can. If something works, I keep at it, modifying where it makes sense, and discard what doesn't work.

LIMA is a new one to me, but I agree with the philosophy. What I have learned is that many "surefire" things are ineffective with a challenging dog. I would never intentionally hurt Ava, but I'm sure the crate training is causing her distress. I feel I have to do it, though, in the kindest way possible. And better me than a trainer, who might not treat her with the same care and patience.

[Nemo]

@ownedbyspencer:

I can't take credit. I'm like a sponge– I listen to everything and use what I can. If something works, I keep at it, modifying where it makes sense, and discard what doesn't work.

LIMA is a new one to me, but I agree with the philosophy. What I have learned is that many "surefire" things are ineffective with a challenging dog. I would never intentionally hurt Ava, but I'm sure the crate training is causing her distress. I feel I have to do it, though, in the kindest way possible. And better me than a trainer, who might not treat her with the same care and patience.

I admire you for going to the level of effort you are. Not a lot of people will do that.

[Buddys Pal]

@ownedbyspencer:

So a choke collar might be an acceptable way to train in Ava's case? I believe that there is a way to do it using only the noise as a negative reinforcement (in much the way that the clicker is a positive reinforcement). I might not be so opposed to that, if someone knew exactly how to do it, but some of the trainers I've talked to believe in a physical correction, with the animal's behavior determining how "physical" the correction would be. As stubborn as Ava is, I would be afraid they would hurt her. She's such a little thing to be so mulish.

PLEASE don't think about a choke collar!!!!! The noise and tightening consequence on their little neck reduces the bond/trust! Clicker training is the way to go with B's. It allows trust, allow them to think it through, teaches you to be patient and in tune, and is forgiving. By this I mean, it you miss the timing on a behavior, you just go on. There are many videos, y-tubes, books, etc on the subject. Just remember when practicing for yourself, think of the clicker as a camera-you want to capture the behavior you want or the steps towards it. For example, luring to a sit-you click on the movement of the rear going down until it touches the floor. then click as soon as the pup's rear is on the floor and only click for this then add the verbal command. Uzie has learned to 'crawl', 'play dead', wave and high five on the clicker. there is really only positive reinforcement as you don't even have to say 'no', just ignore anything done that is not wanted. So cool!!!! Just watch for attention spans and your own frustration level.

[Chealsie508]

How is the firey bundle?

[ownedbyspencer]

Thank you for asking, Chealsie, but I'm sorry to say it's going no better. I have never seen anything like it. One of us is going to give in soon.

[agilebasenji]

oh, i'm sorry, i was looking forward to a good report.

<sigh>

Ttellington touch? Animal communicator? grasping here.</sigh>